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Post by flintfootfilly on Jun 12, 2013 12:44:55 GMT -1
Max came off ALCAR mid December 2011 as I thought he was showing no improvement. He actually went down with colitis 2 days after coming off the oil! I suspect that may have been because the oil exacerbated his selenium deficiency - oil is known to trigger nutritional in other species of animals when they are already deficient in selenium.
Have just checked my diary and it was April 2012 when he started on ALCAR. I think that timescale was purely related to me working my way through different things one at a time, and it wasn't that I had read anywhere about how soon I could start ALCAR after stopping oil.
Hope you find a way forward with Doc. It'd be interesting to know what his muscle enzymes are like at the moment.
Sarah
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Post by wdf on Jun 12, 2013 13:20:21 GMT -1
It'd be interesting to know what his muscle enzymes are like at the moment. Sarah He's an absolute NIGHTMARE to get blood from so nothing has actually be tested - which is a pain! I'm currently waiting for the hair test to come back, I'm " hoping" it will come back positive for EPSM otherwise I'm a bit stuck what to do next  |
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Post by harleydales on Jun 12, 2013 18:28:56 GMT -1
Yep, they can't have the oil at the same time - I gave him 5 days off oil then started the Alcar.
Could you yard him off the grass, so that he can still move freely?
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Post by flintfootfilly on Jun 12, 2013 21:30:48 GMT -1
You could always humour me and have the grass/hay tested for mineral levels. If they show a selenium deficiency (anything less than 0.1mg/kg dry matter) then you could humour me even more by switching to a balancer which provides a significant amount of selenium yeast.
I'm saying you could "humour me" - thing is I am still working my way through different things, but my gang definitely showed a couple of months of significant improvement in muscle enzymes 4 months after starting on selenium yeast. I switched to inorganic selenium at that stage because of the onset of liver problems which may or may not have been associated with the level of different things in the balancer I was using and/or the high level of selenium I was supplementing. Since then, CK has levelled out or started to go back up. So a month ago, I switched to Blue Chip Original balancer which has the highest amount of selenium of any balancer that I've found in the UK (0.9mg selenium yeast and 0.9mg sodium selenite for a 500kg pony per day). When I look at my graphs of blood CK levels now, I wonder whether the initial improvement was due to selenium yeast and that the selenite may not be as effective. I could be wrong, and I won't know for a few months whether the switch to BTO has made any difference.
But if you are struggling to find anything else to help Doc be more comfortable, then it'd be simple to switch balancer and see what happens. And especially if your forage analysis shows that selenium levels are deficient.
I know I go on about selenium, but maybe one of these days I'll prove something about it conclusively!!
Sarah
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Post by wdf on Jun 13, 2013 6:03:18 GMT -1
Could you yard him off the grass, so that he can still move freely? I've been very brave today & asked the YO if i can move fields, told her that Doc's spasms are suspected to be bought on by the grass (which she disagreed with). She's thinking about where to put us & she'll let us know by the weekend SO, until then he's being kept stabled & rode twice 45mins WHICH TBH he's far FAR better for, no locking, no spasms, he'll stand to be mounted - coincidence? I think not! No grass = no spasms as far as I can see, there's a VAST improvement  |
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Post by harveydales on Jun 13, 2013 6:22:09 GMT -1
I wrote a reply yesterday which doesn't seem to have appeared here for some reason. Anyway, it was just confirming again that I am convinced the grass sugars at this time of year affect Harvey's muscle spasms. He is in full work but living out and hasn't shown any serious spasms since his major episode 2 years ago. I never got his muscle enzymes back to normal and don't bother getting him tested any more. I just try and manage him as best I can. I have noticed that the last couple of weeks when he comes in from grass he does a lot more stretching than normal, is keen to have me massage his bum area but seems a lot freer after a good ride. I think you are right to experiement with Doc's grazing. Do keep us posted.
I'm in panic mode because we are going away for a week soon so Harvey won't be exercised and I can't decide what to do about his grazing situation.
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Post by harleydales on Jun 13, 2013 17:58:43 GMT -1
Harley wants his bum massaged too. I can't say he's any different apart from that and being positively bolshy! I moved them on to better grass at the weekend, so he's not interested in his oily food at ALL, so I'm sticking to soya and Alfa A Oil, plus supplements for now.
The optimuscle has good levels of selenium in it.
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Post by wdf on Jun 14, 2013 2:44:18 GMT -1
OK so the YO got back to me last night; she gave me 2 options = stay where we are or she'll fence a small area off in a field thats been stript bare. I really don't know what to do for the best, the current sward is a good 3" in length & it's only been down 5yrs the other patch is millimetres in length so he wouldn't be able to eat anything with the muzzle on so he'd have to be turned out without it which he hasn't been UNmuzzled for 2yrs now.
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Post by harveydales on Jun 14, 2013 5:25:49 GMT -1
He should be fine unmuzzled if the grass is really that short. I know there is the theory that short, stressed grass is high in sugars but I think they are still better off this way and can't possibly eat enough to cause problems. Whenever any of mine have slightly raised pulses on the longer grass and I put them back into a bare paddock, the pulses immediately go down. I know this is lami I'm watching for but it is still the sugar problem.
I've got a similar dilemna with Harvey. Do I leave him on the field he is now which has 2" long lush looking grass even though it is old meadow and never fertilized or do I put him on a small bare paddock. At the moment his symptoms are barely noticable and it will be a lot of work and hassle for me to change things round again..........
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Post by wdf on Jun 14, 2013 6:47:51 GMT -1
He should be fine unmuzzled if the grass is really that short. I know there is the theory that short, stressed grass is high in sugars but I think they are still better off this way and can't possibly eat enough to cause problems. it will be a lot of work and hassle for me to change things round again.......... Yep, I know about the short = DANGER! BUT for some it works well! I'm just a bit jittery about him being UNmuzzled when it took enough time to get him used to BEING muzzled. I'm beginning to think that these americans who have "Paddock Paradise" & slow feeders have it easy. Not sure why here in the UK, livery owners are SO against it. We I am, I recon there would be at least 8 people who'd go for it. In your position I think I'd play safe & put him on the bare paddock whilst your away for peace of mind? |
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Post by heathera on Jun 16, 2013 10:53:22 GMT -1
We tried paddock paradise and it is just impossible on much of the UKs wet and mucky soils. To do it successfully we'd need to invest around £30,000 in building a drained track and putting in the different surfaces needed. We'd then need to feed hay all year round. If we had liveries we'd probably have to double the livery fee (if not treble it) to cover all those costs.
With regard to the grazing mine do much better on incredibly short grass which is classed as stressed. I currently have three Dales and a horse on 1.2 acres 24/7 with no additional feeding other than a balancer and two of them are *still* really overweight.
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Post by wdf on Jun 28, 2013 11:49:16 GMT -1
Taken delivery of a bag of ALcar today; we've been off the oil a week tomorrow so it should be safe to add in now. Someone off the yahoo site said to give the full dosage from day 1 & not gradually increase it like you do with normal dietry changes - not too sure about that? Hope it helps!
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Post by harveydales on Jun 28, 2013 19:48:51 GMT -1
Keep us posted please. |
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Post by wdf on Jun 29, 2013 6:43:38 GMT -1
Keep us posted please. I was a little hesitant to administer the full dosage (worked out to 9g) so weighed my smallest scoop with a level full & it came to 2g so gave him that last night. I've been riding him now on a morning since Thursday (previously been walking in hand), doing OK, no locking, flanks softening but just a slight "glitch"; WELL!, this morning - I was SO glad to get back to the yard, it like he was possessed  every bush, tree, blade of grass was out to GET HIM! Oh he had energy but not the type I like. Is this a normal reaction? Doc used to be VERY responsive to things before we took the sugars out of the diet & this seems to have bought that nervousness back. Early days tho, hope it settles |
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Post by harveydales on Jun 29, 2013 19:12:55 GMT -1
Mmm interesting. Was it the alcar or had something happened to set him off? Either way, it sounds like he was moving freely. I guess you will have to wait until tomorrow to find out but a good sign if his flanks have softened. Alcar didn't have any noticeable effect on Harvey.
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every bush, tree, blade of grass was out to GET HIM! Oh he had energy but not the type I like. Is this a normal reaction? Doc used to be VERY responsive to things before we took the sugars out of the diet & this seems to have bought that nervousness back. Early days tho, hope it settles