looking back for symptoms

[harveydales]

I know I must be driving you all mad with my wittering on. I am pretty sure Harvey does have EPSM syndrome although tests will confirm it. He is 17, I've owned him almost 10 years and had him in periods of peak fitness as well as the opposite and he has never tyed up or given me any cause for concern before.

However, looking back there have been a few things which are making me think again. He has always been a bit funny about picking one of his hinds up and stretches them both out a lot. Lots of horses do this so I've assumed it is normal. Also, when parking out his hind legs often shiver while weeing. They always have done but it has become more noticable over the years. Jane - is Harley similar in these ways? Were there other things which, when you look back, might have been pointers to EPSM?

Even if I'd known about EPSM I wouldn't have managed Harvey any differently. He has always been on a low starch, high oil diet, he has always lived out and is ridden as regularly as I can manage......

[harleydales]

Yep - he's always objected to one hind leg being worked on, and also in 2008 when he was 40 mile fit he was having very slight lameness issues but we couldn't pin it down to any one leg or any one thing.

At the same tim he also, though very fit, dropped a lot of muscle - and of course was on a fairly high starch diet at the time - I thought I had been over cautious about feed levels and him getting fat, but looking back now I think it was EPSM showing.

Last year prior to his episode he was grumpy, didn't like being caught and had a bit of a mad morning at the riding center he was at - rearing and flinging himself around in the stable, no-one could get near him. I think this was also EPSM and he was crampy and sore.

He's always felt the cold despite being super hairy, I've always been surprised at that. And has always got cold (or shivery) quickly after long rides (15 miles +), even on fine days.

Always been a roller, always been sensitive about prickly bushes....

So yes, lots of signs, and not knowing anything about the syndrome I never thought any more of it.

On a great note though - since going on the Opti Muscle I've seen a HUGE change in him, and this weekend I did 2 x 7 mile rides, quite fast, including hill work in hot clammy conditions - and he's been absolutely fine, nice soft muscles, keen to go and not grumpy about being caught - YEE HA!!!! I've entered a 13 to 15 mile pleasure ride next weekend so it'll be interesting to see how he does.

What test are you going for?

[harveydales]

Jane - I think I'll try the hair test. I can't see any point putting Harvey through a muscle biopsy when, going by statistics, there is a pretty good chance he does have EPSM and I will be managing him as though he has it any way.

Interesting about Harley's mad morning, flinging himself about the stable. Sounds just like Harvey's mad morning when I rode him out just prior to his first tying up episode. I've since heard of other horses acting the same way.

I'm so glad Harley is feeling more like his old self and you are able to start thinking of Pleasure Rides again. I really hope I'll be doing the same with Harvey soon. He doesn't appear to have lost any muscle or stamina but he is piling on weight at an alarming rate.

Good luck for the weekend ride.

[harleydales]

Be careful how quickly you biuld up the work as it is easy to overdo it and push them over the edge again. I'ts taken me a year to get Harley anywhere near fit again. It shouldn't be that long for Harvey, but watch and listen to him carefully, I'm sure he'll tell you if he's doing too much.

Keep an eye on the state of his muscles, if they are hard or soft etc, including along his spine as that's where Harley really lost it big time, then his rump, then his shoulders. He lost all the appley-ness on his rump and it hasn't really come back, plus he's not as rounded on his haunches as I would like, though the muscle is slowly coming back.

I weigh tape Harley every week to check what's happening.

He's got his medium rug on at the moment as it has rained every day for the last 10 days, and standing with his bum to the rain seems to make him stiff, and the rug helps.

[harveydales]

Thanks Jane. Yes I am making sure Harvey is rugged appropriately. I do measure all of mine weekly anyway and Harvey has been gaining a bit every week since being off work.

When Harvey is fit and toned his muscles, especially on his rump, have always felt hard and I assumed that it was normal for him. Perhaps he has always been on the edge of tying up.

I will be very careful when I start riding him again. Knowing me, I will take it far too cautiously and Harvey will be quick to take advantage. lol Better safe than sorry though.

[sck1]

Hi

This one of the options that I am discussing with the vet who would like to know if Blue is related to any ponies with EPSM as there is a genetic link. Have you heard of a genetic link before?

[harleydales]

Vets think there is, and several Dales breeders who I have mentioned it to think there is. Others don't think there is. Beth Valentine (guru in the US) also thinks there is. The problem with Dales is there is such a small gene pool that most ponies are related somewhere down the line. One stallion does crop up in all the ponies I know with EPSM-type symptoms, I'm not oing to name manes as I'm not going to be seen to bad-mouth certin lines - plus he was a very prolific stallion who is probably in most Dales pedigrees so it's not guaranteed.

I think as well as the genetic side of things it is the type of pony - draught horses and ponies are the most prone to EPSM although Arabs and Quater Horses can show it too. Perhaps it is to do with their muscle structure and function as much as anything else?

Good luck with finding a diagnosis for Blue - it's not the end of his work days if it is EPSM, he will just need management. Harley was down for a year, but I've now got the diet right (I think!) and this year he did a 30km ride at 11.6kph.

[flintfootfilly]

The genetic mutation causing type 1 EPSM is known, and can be tested for very cheaply on either a mane/tail hair sample or on a blood test.

The cause of type 2 EPSM is unknown at the moment.

Both type 1 and type 2 look the same on biopsy, and so it is only the DNA test which can go on to determine which type of EPSM it is.


Edited to strike out the above. I've just realised I got that wrong! It IS possible to tell the difference between type 1 and type 2 on biopsy.

When a muscle biopsy is stained and looked at under the microscope, type 1 has the classical PAS positive, amylase resistant inclusions in the muscle. Type 2 only has abnormally high accumulations of normal glycogen. The genetic mutation identified so far corresponds to type 1.

One of the vets who's done some looking into EPSM (Richard Piercy at RVC) said in one of his webinars that "type 2 EPSM" could be one condition, or it could be several, the point being that because we don't know the cause, we can't say whether all type 2 have the same cause or not.

Dr Kellon (an american vet who' interested in nutrition and all sorts) says that horses with a high percentage of type 1 fibers, like Arabians and Thoroughbreds, have virtually no EPSM.

She also says that quarterhorses and draft horse types have a high percentage of type 2. Explosive speed and draft work with heavy weights require high anaerobic/type 2 muscle fibre involvement. Her belief is that it is the high percentage of type 2 muscle fibres in these breeds which results in them showing a high incidence of type 1 EPSM.

(It's a bit confusing that the muscle fibre types are types 1 and 2, and the two types of EPSM are also known as types 1 and 2.....)

Sarah

[heathera]

That's really interesting Sarah, Thanks for posting about it. I knew about the different muscle fibre types and it makes a lot of sense for that to influence the problem.