Which Oil?

[wdf]

I've got my lads IR pretty much under control but we still have days (I'd say 3-4 a month now rather than every other week ) where his stifles lock, his hind legs "twitch", grumpy to touch, tight flanks & are now on a mission to reduce these days further, IF I CAN!

Thinking of trying the oil route but not sure which one to try or is there any thing else (chaff/feed wise) which has a high oil content (currently have Hi-Fi mollasses free & Topspec Lite balancer).

[harleydales]

Harley is EPSM so can't cope with carbs from grain at all, so his diet is totally oil based.

I use bog-standard supermarket vegetable oil, Harley gets 150ml as a maintenance ration, up to 300ml if he's working (by working I mean 20 mile endurance rides at 7 mph).

Supermarket oil is much cheaper than any horse oils! I buy 10 litre containers for £6.

I also feed Alfa A Oil which is 12 or 14 % oil, so that puts a bit more into his diet too.

I'm looking at starting on NAFF Oilovite too, which is an oil based supplement - apparantly they love it!

Harley's diet is:
500g Alfa A Oil
250g Happy Hoof/Healthy Hoof - to add bulk and soak up oil!
600g Winergy Low
150 to 300ml veg oil, depending on work
Opti-Muscle supplement (Vit E and Selenium, which they need on high oil diets)
General multi-vit/min supplement
Ad-lib hay and 24 hour turnout.

It works for him!! The problem is as soon as the grass starts to come in he doesn't want the oily feed so I really struggle from May to late July.

I'm delighted to hear you are getting there with your boy, good luck and keep going :-)
PM me if you want to chat.

[harveydales]

Harvey is on Winergy Senior mix which is 5% oil and low sugar/carbs. I add micronised linseed to it to up the oil.

I think Linseed is supposed to be the best oil for Omega 6/3 ratio and Rapeseed the next best and probably the cheapest way of adding more oil to his diet. I believe most supermarket vegetable oil is rapeseed. I've heard corn oil isn't so good.

[flintfootfilly]

WDF, sorry I can't remember whether your boy has a confirmed EPSM diagnosis, or whether it's something you just suspect. I went down the route of thinking my gang had EPSM, and have gradually moved further away from that idea, and am convinced that they have all had a long term selenium deficiency which presents in a very similar way to EPSM (both show up as muscle problems). So my comments come from that "journey" which is still ongoing.

With any horse with muscle problems, I would definitely be looking at optimum levels of the anti-oxidants vitamin E and selenium, which help reduce the amount of oxidative damage to cells (like muscle cells) or help deal with the oxidative products so they cause less ongoing damage. Vit E and selenium act in different ways to each other, so it is essential both are present at good levels in the diet.

With that in mind, I'm surprised you are using Topspec Lite balancer, because that gives only 0.6mg selenium in the daily recommended ration, as opposed to 1.5mg in their anti-lam, comprehensive, or all-in-one products. Might be worth having a word with Nicola Tyler at Topspec and seeing which one she would recommend particularly for your pony.

Whilst the use of oil for EPSM horses can be very useful in giving them enough energy for hard work (where it replaces grains), it can cause excessive weight gain and development of insulin resistance if too much is given to horses and ponies who don't actually need it for the level of work they are doing. Oil is about 4 or 5 times as energy-dense as hay, so if you give 100ml of oil, you need to reduce the forage part of the diet by 400-500g, which may start to leave the pony too hungry because they are not getting enough fibre in their diet. Really difficult balancing act.

One thing to consider when using an oil is to make sure it is a pure oil (ie that it does not contain any additives. The only ingredient should be the oil itself.). I can't remember what the common additive is, but I remember reading that it was worth checking the label.

I have twice tried introducing oil to the diet of my worst-affected pony (before we conclusively excluded EPSM as the cause - DNA and biopsy tested). The first time he went down with colitis (and nearly died) within four weeks of starting him on 150ml oil a day. Both times blood tests showed peaks in his muscle enzymes (which reflect recent muscle damage) within a month. However, I have to say that I have not (yet) found anyone who has had a similar experience.

In the light of those results, I did a bit of reading online and it seems that polyunsaturated oils can be used experimentally to actually cause muscle problems in non-ruminant cattle who are already deficient in selenium. See this reference to a paper by Kennedy and Rice if you are interested: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1632056 . The more I read, the more I see that polyunsaturated oils are associated with muscle problems in other species.

I would now be extremely hesitant to use significant amounts of oil in the diet of a pony who had muscle problems, unless I had ruled out selenium deficiency or had a positive diagnosis for EPSM.

Whatever you choose to do for your boy, I hope it helps.

Sarah

[harleydales]

Just for interest, Harley has never gained any weight since he went on the oil based diet. He's now been on it for over 2 years and actually has got muscles, and can use them and stretch again - when he was in the thick of his EPSM issues he couldn't stretch in trot at all - now he REALLY covers the ground.

I get round having to reduice the feed by increasing the bulk, by feeding v low calorie things like Healthy Hoof so he still gets loads of fibre, plus the ad-lib hay.

It does sound like you need to up the Vit E and Selenium though - the change in Harley once I put him on the Opti-Muscle was absolutely phenomenal.

It's a minefield, and I tried heaps of different things before I landed on this diet, which works well for Harley.

[wdf]

NO, Doc has never been tested as he's "episodes" are pretty mild and infrequent. After he's lami-look-a-like attack last April (only lame with pulses, no protein lines in feet) which the vet & farrier said was most definately IR (large hard cresty neck) which I sadly mistook for him maturing anyway, he got a complete diet change & was muzzled when out + has at least 20mins walk every day; after several trial & errors (going lame after too much turnout) it works out that even when muzzled if he has more than 9hrs he's pulses raise WHEN SUNNY, if it's overcast or wet he could have upto 12hrs BUT he then gets cold which brings on the tight muscles & grumpy attitude etc. Vet said as long as the basic's were working not to go down the tested route.

Learning how to cope with him & losing Shian has just been but hey-ho!!

I've been looking at adding Opti-muscle &/or Linseed A Dengie advisor is coming to our yard next month with a weigh-bridge, I'll see what she says I think. HOPEFULLY we'll be lighter than last Sept as we've no crest now got to be 30kg less!

[harleydales]

Harley gets sore and grumpy in the cold too - he's now rugged throug hthe winter even though he's not clipped, and that's kept him going.

I swear by the Opti-muscle. In fact Harley was one of their testimonials!

Harley always grows a bonkers crest in the spring, but it drops off again in the summer. Makes him a very odd shape when the rest of him is lean but hey ho!! He also frequently has pulses.

He was tested positive EPSM through muscle biopsy.

Good luck and keep going - pm if you want to chat x

[wdf]

Mar 28, 2013 12:00:04 GMT -1 harleydales said:

Harley gets sore and grumpy in the cold too - he's now rugged throug hthe winter even though he's not clipped, and that's kept him going.

Makes him a very odd shape when the rest of him is lean but hey ho!! He also frequently has pulses.

For such a hardy native, Doc (Fell) certainly IS NOT a hardy native - more like a warmblood in disguise

Yep, Doc's lean apart from the neck; last Sept he was mainly scored as 4's, some 5's & his neck was given a 9 we were 455kg which is an improvement from 18 months previously, he was a shocking 540kg Im hoping he'll be about 430kg now

[harveydales]

Good luck with Doc and keep us posted with how he's getting on. I know it isn't easy trying to balance feed and general management for ponies with these sorts of problems.

Harvey is on quite a high calorie diet and was in hard work but I haven't been able to keep it up with the bad weather this winter. However, he hasn't put weight on. In fact he is on the lean side but well muscled and looking goood. I also used Optimuscle when Harvey first started with his tying up episodes.

[wdf]

Just when I think things are going OK & I see a tiny light - WHACK Havn't got a clue what's caused he's latest "episode" as I've done NOTHING different!! There is a strong cold wind out in the field tho & who knows if he's been running about with the neighbours

Im currently waiting a delivery of Optimuscle & Micronised Linseed - Been considering trying it, so I'be bit the bullet & ordered it.

[harveydales]

The cold can make a difference. I keep Harvey extremely well rugged now and even ride in a warm quarter sheet when it is as cold as this.

[harleydales]

Yep, Harley's the same and gets sore and crampy when it's cold.

Has your grass started to grow at all? Grass is high in starch and sugars when it's in the spring flush, so it could also be that?

[wdf]

Apr 9, 2013 20:03:12 GMT -1 harleydales said:

Yep, Harley's the same and gets sore and crampy when it's cold.

Has your grass started to grow at all? Grass is high in starch and sugars when it's in the spring flush

Put he's heavy winter rug back on & he's more comfortable today, will actually stand still for more than a second!! Gone back to walking in-hand for the time being aswell.

We've not alot of new grass growth yet BUT the field I'm in I've had to keep him muzzled all winter anyway as there was far too much for him.

[wdf]

Mar 28, 2013 9:03:53 GMT -1 wdf said:

HOPEFULLY we'll be lighter than last Sept as we've no crest now got to be 30kg less!

Last Sept we were 455kg (12 months previously we were 540kg!!) we are now . . . . . . . . . 420kg that said; we HAVE come out the same on the weight tape (404) which to me means it's all off he's neck (it does look dramatically different, with more to come off). Anyway this Dengie lady said to ONLY feed 1 scoop of Hi-Fi mollasses free a day and possibly add their Leisure vit/min (+ 16lb of soaked hay) - NOTHING ELSE.

I'm new to these metabolic challenges but that just doesn't sound right where do I get more energy from to do more work, I can't keep only doing 30 - 40mins walking

[harleydales]

The energy comes from the additional oil - and he won't put weight on with it. It's all very bizarre - Harley has the Alfa A Oil and Winergy Low, which is a pretty low-cal diet, but with the 150ml of oil he seems to get enough energy.

Most feed people don't know much about EPSM/IR - sad to say but true. I spoke to a lady called Beth Valentine in the USA a lot when harley was diagnosed and as far as I can see the feed is pretty much purely a carrier for the oil.

All I can tell you is what works for Harley but I suspect all horses are different. But I think as you increase the work, add in the oil and he'll get the calories he needs without the weight gain. And if he starts to increase weight again then drop the oil down. Harley has a bit of a belly, but I can feel his ribs so he's not fat.

I'm looking a soya now, but need to find out the nutritional elements of it, I'm not sure how starchy it is.