"Lazy" pony, grinding to a halt - raised muscle enzymes

[colmworthdales]

Hi Sarah

I am Kate, not Evie! Very interesting, and I do hope you get to bottom of it, and can sort it. Glad you sometiomes can get them out and about. Sure a change of scenery, scents, sounds etc helps them mentally and maybe make them forget other problems. Know that it works for me!!

[heathera]

I do t have anything to add but wanted to say thanks for all the posts. I'm about to start the blood tests and metabolic syndrome tests route with Tola. It's really upsetting as she's my dream pony and its so hard to see her trying so hard and simply unable to force her body to do more.

Interestingly she's also better in colder weather.

[harveydales]

Aug 2, 2013 5:08:38 GMT -1 heathera said:

I do t have anything to add but wanted to say thanks for all the posts. I'm about to start the blood tests and metabolic syndrome tests route with Tola. It's really upsetting as she's my dream pony and its so hard to see her trying so hard and simply unable to force her body to do more.

Interestingly she's also better in colder weather.

Oh no, I had no idea you were having problems with Tola. I really hope it's just a growing youngster thing and not one of these syndromes.

Because of the natural placid, energy conservative nature of our Dales Ponies it is not always easy to recognise what is normal and what is not. Harvey's dramatic tying up was definitely not normal and his blood muscle enzymes were way out of the range and I never got them back to normal. For all I know they are still high but he seems fine. We did a 10mile EGB endurance ride in very good times on Sunday, passing both vettings, and yesterday I did a 12 mile ride at Castle Howard with Sue which involved a 3 hour journey to get there and 2 hours back. He came off the trailer looking fresh although right now he is standing in the field chilling, looking like a tired old man but I know he can go from that to "silly mode" in seconds should the need arise. Well I hope I'm not going to be proved wrong when I go down to get him in this morning............

[flintfootfilly]

Heather

I'm so sorry to hear about Tola. Hope you can get to the bottom of what's going on with her, and help her come through it.

Does it show up anything like my gang? I remember Tola is your homebred pony - out of interest, did her mum retain her placenta when foaling?

I know I say this often but do insist on copies of all blood reports for your records and for future reference. They have proven very useful to me, and to others, because sometimes vets fail to report slightly elevated levels of things like muscle enzymes which may well be significant.

If you would like to compare signs, just let me know and I'll happily pm a fairly comprehensive list of signs shown by various of my ponies.

Good luck with Tola.

Sarah

[heathera]

Thank-you for the kind words. Tola's birth was textbook, no retained placenta and bang on 340 days. She did take a while to manage to latch into a teat but she was trying hard, just couldn't work out how to suck and bend down and twist all at the same time. She had plenty of milk and colostrum though as we stomach tubed her twice.

Instructor was out today and agreed she's much happier now she's on Regumate, she was uncomfortable, tense and becoming quite aggressive before we put her on it. She's had scans done by the reproductive vet and all looks healthy and normal so, thankfully, no tumours or cysts.

What we have now is she tries to comply and do things but seems to really struggle. I hacked her out on Wednesday and we were walking briskly as out with a fast paced Arab but we weren't going that fast. After 4km she was sweated up and really puffy. You notice it in her breathing more than anything else, she is puffed out really fast but then she recovers really fast too.

She isn't losing weight despite being on non-existent grazing and being worked in all three paces three times a week. Merlin is on the same regime and is steadily losing weight and gaining fitness and Rose is positively buzzing on the regime yet Tola remains fat and unfit.

Instructor today agreed she is trying for me, she just doesn't seem to have any oomph. She carries her weight over her rump and hips rather than over her ribs and has a small crest even though she's on such a restricted diet. She's a tall 14.1hh and I can feel her ribs, although they are well covered, but she still weighs 500kg! Her paces were fabulous today and she was tracking up and really engaging but I had to bully her to keep going forward every step if the way and she was constantly trying to fall flat, use her shoulder to drag herself along and would have ground to an instant halt if I hadn't been so active in encouraging her forward. It's not much fun for either of us but if I don't exercise her she becomes seriously obese very quickly and then becomes tense and inflexible.

I've had a couple of occasions where she's reached the point of stumbling along in exhausted fashion after just a short time when she's 'hit the wall' out hacking. If I let her rest for ten minutes and then lead her for half an hour or so she picks back up again but she's never really as forward or fit as she should be.

It's weird as she has the odd day where she's really forward and bouncy, normally when it's colder.

[harleydales]

Funny - the vet that saw Harley in Glasgow described him as 'a lazy pony' too - lazy ponies don't do 40 miles at 7 mph!

[flintfootfilly]

Jane, I remember you mentioning they'd called Harley a "lazy" pony, despite him being an endurance pony! The first vet who saw Max described him as "strongwilled and stubborn" and I remember saying at the time that I'd agree with strong-willed, but we couldn't say stubborn just because we hadn't yet found the cause of his reluctance. I've had all sorts of ridiculous comments like "must be normal FOR HIM" - huh? Muscle damage is normal then? And then people not believing there's anything wrong, when I'm going nearly out of my mind with what's wrong and how I can help them! The latest thing is that Rock is "bored"!!!! That's despite elevated muscle enzymes (which indicate muscle damage) and a reluctance to go forward (which is known to be associated with muscle damage......... I despair sometimes!!! Thankfully, Beth Valentine continues to be incredibly helpful. I really don't know how she finds the time to help as many people as she does.

Heather, from what you say Tola sounds very similar to my gang. I have often mulled over why Max is so much worse than the other ponies, and the main thing I've come down to is that he was born to a mare who had been with me for many years on a selenium-deficient diet, and went the longest time on that diet himself.

I came across a study on white-tailed deer which showed how selenium deficiency is compounded through the generations, and whilst it's a different species it did seem to support my theory. This is the link to that paper: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/567248 The full paper is available freee - you just have to click to download it once you've clicked on the above link.

A full blood profile was our starting point, and when CK (creatine kinase) was raised significantly, around 2,500 at that time, I knew that muscle problems accounted for Max's work intolerance. That CK is about 10X higher than normal.

Beyond that, forage analysis was the most useful thing I did.

And then, I believe but can't yet prove, that I needed to supplement with organic selenium (selenium yeast) rather than inorganic (sodium selenite) to make any improvement.

Who knows, Tola's problem may turn out to be something totally different, but her signs do sound very similar. Max can be quite aggressive with other ponies when I'm leading them from him (which of course I continue to do, because he has to learn, but hey, he persists in sniping at them way beyond what a "normal" pony would do.

Anyway, hoping you find a solution to Tola's problem.

Sarah

[heathera]

Many thanks, I'm off to read the paper but will definitely ask for muscle enzymes to be checked too when we have bloods done.

[heathera]

Quick update. Tola is now on the NAF www.naf-equine.eu/uk/products/productDetail.jsp?detail_id=vitamin-e-selenium--lysineVit E, selenium and lysine supplement. It's a yeast based selenium which I think is what Sarah says works better. They said my area is so selenium deficient that she's safe to be fed TopSpec Balancer AND this although I'm feeding at pony dose not horse dose. The NAF nutritionist reckons it will be three months before we know if it's helping as it's likely to be a long term, chronic shortage.

Towards the end of next month we are probably going to take her into the vets for a full work up as we want to check her spine and pelvis as well as her soft tissue.

She's just put 10kg ON in the last month while all the others have LOST 10kg

[flintfootfilly]

Hi Heather

yes, the selenium yeast (ie organic selenium) is known to be more bioavailable than inorganic (sodium selenite).

The only improvements I have seen in all my ponies' muscle enzyme levels have been after several months on a balancer containing organic selenium, and not even after 10 months when on one containing inorganic selenium.

Bloods a couple of weeks back (3 months after starting on organic selenium again) showed a small improvement in CK levels for all ponies, so I'm hoping we're on the right track.

Personally I would ditch any balancer which only has inorganic selenium, as it did not bring about any improvement in my gang, and I would focus on giving something which added 1mg a day of selenium per 500kg pony.

Whilst that particular NAF product has selenium yeast in, some of their other products only use inorganic selenium. Also, with the product you've chosen, you'd have to feed a lot of it to get to the minimum recommended amount of selenium per day.

ie, they recommend 2 scoops a day for a pony. That would only give you 0.32mg of selenium, which is just less than a third of the recommended minimum amount so if you really believe that the rest of the diet is selenium deficient, it is unlikely to be enough to overcome that.

In terms of traditional balancers, the ones I have found giving the most selenium (as organic selenium) are all 3 Blue Chip balancers, and Dengi Alfa-A balancer (which although it says sodium selenite on the bag, has been confirmed to me as having only organic selenium in it, confirmed by the vit/min premix suppliers - they are addressing the inaccuracy on the bag currently).

I'm hoping for more change at 4 to 5 months, and will be interested to hear what difference it makes to Tola.

Sarah

[ikklecob]

Aug 26, 2013 10:47:22 GMT -1 heathera said:

She's just put 10kg ON in the last month while all the others have LOST 10kg

Doodie (NF x) put on loads of weight to the point we became convinced she was in foal. It turned out it was her hormones causing it. She became evil to try and ride, bronked in the stable when I put the saddle on so I passed riding and 2 days later she was so in season it was untrue. I would still be looking at hormones for your girl as well if they are taking bloods could they check these as well.

[flintfootfilly]

Can't remember the full details, but lack of selenium is thought to potentially cause some thyroid imbalance (the balance between T3 and T4, the active and inactive forms of whatever it is), and that in itself can cause animals to be more prone to weight gain. I'll see if I can find the details. Can't remember my reference, but I know it's based on science rather than being anecdotal. Something to do with selenium being needed in one of the thyroid enzymes, I think.

I used to have to watch my gang's weight very carefully. Could only give about 1.5%BWDM food to those not in work, and 1.7%BWDM to those in work. Now they are all doing minimal work and we are almost maintaining weights at around 2.0% BWDM (I say almost because gradually over about 10 months, we've put on about 30kg per pony but not too bad considering).

Sarah

[flintfootfilly]

Long overdue, but here's a list of some of the signs/symptoms that my gang have shown as part of their ongoing muscle problems. They haven't all shown all of the signs below:

Mare retained placenta during foaling, or foal born from a mare who retained her placenta
Time taken to first stand as a foal (mins) U 93 U 32 40 U U U
Muscle fasciculations
CK bloods above lab ref of 225
CK bloods above “high normal” of 350
Highest CK 848 3785 1224 428 676 866
Lowest CK 232 2517 302 209 351 493
Reduction in CK 4-5 months after starting selenium yeast supplementation (ie reduction in u/l) 440 514 379 121 142 -
CK pre & 5hrs post exercise test 3874/3762 311/280 591/884
Grinding to a halt during walk, trot and/or canter work
Reluctance to speed up
Reluctance to go forward in company of another ridden horse
Very bracey in terms of lateral flexion
Lack of regular rhythm in trot
Lack of engagement in trot (not carrying me forward)
Stilted hind limb action in trot
Tense, choppy trot
Flamboyant/“Dancy” (elevated, but disengaged) trot when forced to go forward
Bucking when asked to go forward
Reaction if forced to go forward: Bronc Tense, stressy
Reluctance to go forward showed when bringing in to ridden work
Dragging behind when leading up in halter
Reluctance and/or difficulty backing up
Laid back and unflappable temperament
Tendency to lean on rein and be heavy on forehand (despite much work on this)
More reluctant/stilted walking downhill
Shifting lameness walking downhill (appearing lame on one front leg and then the other within the space of a few seconds)
Occasionally dribbles urine on the yard
Multiple very short wees (ie 3 seconds or less) whilst being led or ridden
Stops during work and parks out as though to wee, but does nothing
“Wobbly” incident in Jan 2006 as a yearling (came in from field in uncoordinated canter, totally falling over 6 times; very unbalanced with light finger pressure pushing on his side; no tail tone) Y
Frantic multiple rolling and moving around stressed and head throwing after being out in heavy rain
Tail raised and/or held at an angle
Excess salivation
Kicking up at girth whilst tacking up
Aggressive (lungeing at them with his teeth) with ponies walking close to him during ride/lead work, despite much work on this
Acute colitis one month after starting on 140ml corn oil per day (and replacing part of hay ration with increasing ration of oat straw)
Unexpectedly heavy breathing following light work (9.11.11 : During ridden walk in the school, Max’s breathing was 44bpm (compared to Rock being led at the time, who was at 14bpm). One ridden walk circuit of the arena took 1m30s – 1m20s (normal pony does it in 55s-1m))
Reluctant to keep feet lifted up for trimming
Snatched hind feet up dramatically when asked to lift them to pick out
Remarkably symmetrical fibrotic myopathy-type gait (with only unilateral small area of FM seen on ultrasound – at AHT)
Strides wide and paddly with front and hind legs
Very firm muscles on hindquarters
Steep pelvis
Not keen on leg stretches (physio)
Tilts head to one side when lungeing

Sarah

[Debbie]

Sarah I wanted to say Thank You!!! for this thread. I never realized the Oregon coast was so deficient in selenium and I've been warned that ponies/horses can become depleted very quickly. I'm trying to source selenium for my two (the riding herd has their block) and it's been very helpful to me to continually come back to this thread to check what source I need to look for and what amounts.

Quick question, many of the seleniums in the US are tied with Vit E, but I have found pure selenium yeast, which is what I'm leaning towards (other products are combinations and frankly, they have a lot of extra stuff I don't want Blossom to have if I can avoid it). Do they need Vit E to make the selenium work? And if so, what ratio should I look for?

[heathera]

I'd be wary of feeding it without the VitE as selenium is one of those that its easy to give them a toxic overdose of and I think the VitE is involved with the absorption or clearance or some important part of the metabolic process anyway.....