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Post by flintfootfilly on Nov 3, 2013 8:31:48 GMT -1
For what it's worth, I've just looked through all the videos that come as part of the main veterinary textbook on lameness that Sue Dyson and Mike Ross put together, and there's nothing on there looking at all like Tola (but they do say they are just showing some of the more common presentations).
Sarah
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Post by heathera on Nov 11, 2013 10:27:33 GMT -1
Thank-you Sarah, its kind of you to spend time looking for me.
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Post by Debbie on Nov 13, 2013 19:39:16 GMT -1
Any changes or word from any vets that they've seen this before? *waits anxiously....
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Post by heathera on Nov 13, 2013 20:24:07 GMT -1
Nothing yet but we've started her on NAF Gastriaid as I won a tub in a draw. Amazingly it see,a to be helping her after just five days, she's not cuddly but she's stopped being quite as grumpy and seems to be standing more squarely. She's happily doing as much Liberty and Online work as I can give her in the arena and I have someone coming next week to help me fit our driving harness to her so I can start long lining her out and about in harness.
I have no idea what her long term future will be but she hasn't had any big episodes like on the video for a while so I'm just following a general rehab program and doing what we can. I can't afford £1,200 or so for scintigraphy of her thoracic and lumbar spine and wouldn't put her through spinal surgery anyway.
If she settles for driving then that's OK with me, if she doesn't she'll be a very beautiful online and liberty pony for me for now.
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Post by Debbie on Nov 18, 2013 21:08:00 GMT -1
Gosh that's brilliant news Heather! Has she continued to make further improvements? What luck you got to win that in a draw  I never win anything, but I'm sure the company's happy it's gone to Tola and has helped her already. |
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Post by cadeby on Nov 19, 2013 14:53:10 GMT -1
That all sounds very positive. I think Tola was meant to win that supplement |
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Post by flintfootfilly on Nov 20, 2013 14:59:58 GMT -1
Heather
I just bought one of the books that was recommended on one of Dr Kellon's courses, and it arrived this week.
It's called Large Animal Neurology, by Joe Mayhew. 2nd edition.
My interest in it is because of trying to keep an open mind about muscle issues, because the boundaries are so blurred between muscle and nerve problems, because both need to be working properly for the result to look "normal".
Anyway, there's nothing like Tola's pelvic dipping as you showed us in the video. But on page 178, there are a couple of pictures at the top of the page: one shows a horse dipping its back and overflexing its hocks (interpreted as being neurological: due to ataxia and upper motor neurone weakness interfering with the normal response to mild pressure from hands on a horse's back); the other shows a horse in a fairly similar stance, but with its back more raised, and with more of a pelvic tilt and flexed hocks as someone is putting light pressure on the back. About this second horse it says: "On the other hand, horses with evidence of severe but chronic myopathy such as this bay gelding (b) can respond excessively to manipulation of the lumbar dorsum. However, igt is all the other clinical findings rather than such a response to palpation that must be used in forming such a diagnosis. The elevated serum CK activity and exacerbation of apparent lumbar hyperresponsiveness to digital manipulation (b) increased with exercise".
The stance of horse (b) looked so like Tola with her pelvic tilted, but obviously it's a static photo in the book, and it was on palpation rather than with a horse not being touched at all.
But it just made me think yet again, if the vets have still not come up with any leads for you to follow up, I really would obtain copies of all blood results and see for yourself whether muscle enzymes are even marginally raised.
They may not be, and that's fine, you just know for sure not to look down that avenue.
But the fact that Tola's CK was lower after exercise does not in itself rule out muscle problems. Sure, the chances of it being EPSM are slimmer, but for example my Max when he underwent the Minnesota exercise test his pre-exercise CK was 3,874, and his CK 5 hours post-exercise was 3,762. OK in his case, both were extremely abnormal, but the fact remains his was lower after exercise by over 100 units...... but it didn't mean that he doesn't have muscle disease.
I really will shut up about this now, because it is your decision entirely whether to look into that side of it further. It's just that I've been in the position of vets coming up with nothing,and it's only been when I've asked for test results details that I've had enough to go on to find a way forward as best I can.
Sarah
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Post by heathera on Nov 27, 2013 7:55:25 GMT -1
Thanks Sarah, my university library has a copy of the book so I've asked to borrow it. In the meantime we've been fighting a viral lurch this week. Merlin was poorly last week and To,a came down with it this week. She was doing a good impression of a dying pony yesterday and overnight but has perked up this morning thank goodness.
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Post by harleydales on Nov 27, 2013 9:05:05 GMT -1
What a stroke of luck winning the supplement! If it helps her long term that's great!
Good luck with the harness fitting session too.
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Post by cassey1988 on Nov 27, 2013 11:57:12 GMT -1
I hope she'll be doing very fine very soon!
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Post by dalesnfellfan on Nov 27, 2013 15:02:59 GMT -1
What a lovely attitude you've got to it Heather to just be happy with what she can give you, I hope you find out what's causing the problem and that she recovers, its interesting that the gastric supplement appears to be helping and maybe points to ulcers either stomach or duodenal, I'm sure you've considered this before but other things which may help are green clay or brewers yeast.
good luck with her
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Post by heathera on Nov 29, 2013 15:34:45 GMT -1
I'm debating brewers yeast but I have in my mind that it might not be good for footy or LGL horse? I'll do some more reading.
I now have the book Sarah mentions and the picture does look very like Tola but it's a hyper reactivity to manipulation of a reflex point coupled with high CK levels causing it in the case being discussed. Tola has a normal reaction to the reflex point work and her CK levels are normal. The case in the book also worsened with exercise whereas Tola improves the more work we give her. She's now lost 45kg in weight (ish) and, before becoming ill was being worked pretty hard in hand. the fitter she is the better she is.
It's going to be a couple of weeks before weds much other than gentle, in hand picnic walks now as she was so poorly this week and that gives me more time to read the book more. So far it's reassuring me that she doesn't have neurological or metabolic issues. thanks for pushing me towards to Sarah.
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Post by heathera on Mar 4, 2014 12:08:05 GMT -1
Another update. We never did find out what the problem was but this was us a few weeks ago. She's now on NAF Pink Powder at competition horse levels instead of a pellet balancer at lower levels (less calories and other additives and higher doses of trace elements), NAF Oestress which contains chasteberry among other things and NAF GastriAid. I've also got her in a pelham with two reins and a closer contact than I would normally have but she's going from strength to strength. I wouldn't let anyone else ride her as she can be opinionated and expressive within those opinions  and she needs her rider to be firmly in control and charge at all times but I'm tentatively hopeful for her future now. We've also done a couple of short hacks now where she's been very anxious but managed to mentally hold herself together with a lot of reassurance from me. Interestingly the vet found another case of a mare with the exact same history and hippy dippy thing that developed after being put on Regumate. Other mare was still on Regumate and still doing hippy dips whereas I took Tola off the Regumate at the end of the summer and she hasn't done any hippy dips since. The company said they had never heard of it as a side effect before and said the drug couldn't be to blame. I don't think it caused the initial problem but I think it caused something else to occur with her reproductive system that caused the hippy dippy thing so I won't be putting her back on it. In summary she is sensitive around her abdomen and I think she has either hind end, gut ulcers or something that triggers spasming of her reproductive system but there's nothing I can do about either of those other than what I'm doing so I'm just keeping going and enjoying what we can now do. The more work she has the calmer and happier she is. |
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Post by wdf on Mar 4, 2014 13:12:48 GMT -1
That's brilliant news! & long may it continue
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Post by harveydales on Mar 4, 2014 20:30:56 GMT -1
Great news. |
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I never win anything, but I'm sure the company's happy it's gone to Tola and has helped her already. 
and she needs her rider to be firmly in control and charge at all times but I'm tentatively hopeful for her future now. We've also done a couple of short hacks now where she's been very anxious but managed to mentally hold herself together with a lot of reassurance from me. 
