Looking for cause of tying up:UK selenium maps

[flintfootfilly]

For anyone else struggling to find the cause of chronic muscle problems, causing work intolerance and signs very similar to those found in EPSM horses, you may find these maps interesting in identifying which areas are selenium-deficient. Selenium deficiency (and also vitamin E) can be a cause of muscle problems, so it's worth checking out in forage analyses.

Bear in mind what the veterinary textbook Radostits says: "Soils containing (less than) 0.5mg/kg of selenium are likely to support crops and pastures with potentially inadequate selenium concentrations ((less than) 0.05mg/kg DM).

It's also worth bearing in mind that whilst the maps show general trends relating to geography, levels can vary from field to field, and can be influenced by land use (eg types of fertilisers, other additives, industrial activities etc). However, it is generally accepted that it is geology which mostly influences selenium status.




England and Wales (scroll down to the second map, labelled "advanced soil geochemical atlas of England and Wales":

www.bgs.ac.uk/nercsoilportal/maps.html

On this map, the dark blue and the medium blue are deficient areas. In other words, around 70% of England and Wales are deficient.

Turquoise and green are great!


Scotland (NB these are predicted levels, rather than actual levels...... but at least they are an indication):

Map is on page 75. May take a while to open, as this is a large document

www.foodbase.org.uk//admintools/reportdocuments/419-1-764_S14042_Final_Report10-3-2010.pdf

Green is low.

Orange/red is high.

So, similar to England/Wales, much of Scotland is deficient.

Ireland

Search for "selenium" until you reach the page showing 4 maps of selenium status of soil, sediments etc.

Ireland

www.bgs.ac.uk/gsni/tellus/conference/pdf/2.3.HelenBroadwith%20-%20Tellus%20Conference.pdf

I can't see the scale clearly, but dark blue is the most deficient, then lighter blue and green.

This document does say that selenium is the most common deficiency in Northern Ireland.

America

And seeing as I'm on a roll now....... here's a map showing selenium levels in America (I know nothing about this website, but thought the map might be of interest to some. I know I've seen variations on this map previously.

gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/SeleniumOverloadLookatYourHorsesHoovesandHair.htm

Sarah

[colmworthdales]

Those maps are really interesting. Thanks for putting the link up. Can't quite pinpoint where I am on such a small scale map, but it does not look good for anywhere near here.

So far, I have not come across any problems in my horses, or those belonging to friends so maybe we have been lucky - or not working our animals enough!

My brood mare often (4 out of 6 foalings) has retained the afterbirth although everything else has been absolutely normal with her pregnancies and foals. Often wondered if there was a mineral deficiency reason behind that - but must admit I have not pursued it.

[flintfootfilly]

Thanks for the reply.

BINGO!!!!!!

I have bred from 3 mares whilst I have been here, all in different years ...... and all 3 mares retained their placentas. Along with the retained placentas, it's the forage analyses repeatedly showing only around 0.03-0.05mg/kg DM selenium and the raised muscle enzymes and work intolerance across all my ponies that make me believe selenium deficiency is the cause.

The more I asked friends about how often their ponies had retained placentas, the more I realised it wasn't normal to have it 100% of the time!

So it's really interesting to hear about your brood mare. It is widely known that selenium deficiency causes cattle to retain their placentas, and I've come across a couple of studies showing how selenium supplementation reduces placental retention time in horses..... but equine vets don't seem to be clued up on it.

Work intolerance only became apparent with my ponies when they were coming into more work. Some showed it when significant amounts of trotting were introduced. Others when I asked for more than a few strides of canter.

I don't think I said, but I live in one of the mid-blue areas.

Sarah

[harveydales]

Very interesting, thanks for posting these maps. I'm in a mid blue area too, which ties in with hay analyses I've had done over the years. I do supplement all my ponies with a high Selenium balancer just to be on the safe side. Harvey certainly isn't showing signs of work intolerance and hasn't tied up since that episode a couple of years ago.

[Debbie]

How interesting! I just looked at the US map, and Blossom's been raised in a normal/not deficient region for much of her life. We just relocated to the Oregon coast this Spring, and I noticed the Oregon coast is deficient. This Fall, I was so thrilled to rehome one of the working horses from here. Johnny was 19 according to the old owners and I took steps this summer to give him a really nice detoxer before he went to his very posh new home. His new onwer's kept me in the loop and recently she told me they'd gotten back Johnny's blood work and it showed he was selenium deficient. She'd suspected as much since his stools were soft, and the vet gave him a selenium shot to rebalance him.

I'll have to go back and ask her some questions about all this, because while he was here, Johnny didn't show soft stools. They were always normal. He was on pasture, and although rundown/veteran type, he rebounded from the detoxer I did for him. The only time his stools went soft was when I gave him the coconut oil. Initially I gave him too much, so I had to scale that back, but that was the only time he had soft stools in my care.

I did note, when I found we were selenium deficient, I found a selenium block and offered it to Bloss but also the main riding herd. Blossom's barely touched hers, but the herd ate at least half of theirs down before they'd finally had their fill and slacked off.

[flintfootfilly]

Interesting to hear about Johnny's blood results. Unfortunately the UK uses different units from other labs worldwide, and despite looking for conversion factors, it has been impossible to compare my selenium results with others.

It does sound though, from other groups, as if the USA is more clued up on testing for selenium deficiencies in horses. In the UK, the tests use the reference ranges drawn up for cattle, which I believe are totally inappropriate because cattle don't have to work, so do not have to cope with the higher level of oxidative stress associated with work. Therefore I think they will not require such high levels of antioxidants like selenium and vitamin E to remain healthy.

Incidentally, I have not found soft poo to be an indicator of selenium deficiency in my gang. The only exception to that is when Max had severe colitis a month after starting him on a high fat diet. In hindsight, I believe the fat imposed too much oxidative stress on his already selenium-deficient system, and that is the time when his muscle enzyme levels shot up by over 1,000 units within the space of a few weeks. He had work tolerance problems before then, but the muscle damage really escalated at that point.

I now weigh all feed/supplements for each pony for their daily feed because I really need to be strict about raising the selenium levels enough to make a difference, but not enough to cause problems. It's a fine balance.

I'm not sure how I'd do it if I had a larger herd and daily individual feeds weren't an option. Cattle are easier, it seems, because they can just be given an oral pellet which stays in their rumen and gradually releases minerals over a few months, but that's not possible with horses.

Sarah

[colmworthdales]

Fascinating stuff on this thread. Which selenium balancer do you use? Do I have to get blood tests done before I start giving selenium? I am having a visit from the vet this week, so I will ask her about selenium deficiency -be interesting to see if she is clued up.

I have a small Dexter single suckler herd on the smne fields and they do not show problems although I give them a mixed mineral bucket most of the time. I will have to look at the labels againn and see how much selenium it contains. The ponies do like to have a go at the cattle minerals if they get a chance - maybe self-medication is going on.

[flintfootfilly]

Unless I had reason to believe that I was in an area which was unusually high in selenium, then I'd feel happy to give a general vit/min supplement or balancer at the recommended feeding rate. They stay well within recommended safe limits for minerals.

Having looked at the analyses for a lot of vit/min supplements, other muscle supplements and balancers, the two I'd choose between would be:

Blue Chip (either Original or Lite): they provide 0.9mg organic selenium per day per 500kg horse, as well as 0.9mg inorganic selenium. It's the organic selenium I believe is helping my gang, and it is known to be more bioavailable than inorganic.

or

Dengie Alfa A Balancer: it gives 1mg organic selenium, but no inorganic selenium. It's this one I'm using at the moment so I can add a bit more selenium, weighed accurately, to boost the levels for my gang a bit more but still stay within supposedly safe limits.

Blue Chip is much more widely available, and one of their main people used to work for Alltech who produce the selenium yeast, and he's very clued up on it, and I have total confidence in their product as a result of that.

If I was to feed a different one to those two, it would be Pro Hoof which is only available on ebay. I've not tried it, but the analysis looks good.

I've yet to find a vet who's clued up on selenium deficiency in horses, sadly. The interactions I've had with vets have made me think they only recognise a deficiency in a horse when it can barely stand up, or when it produces a foal who can't stand up. Whereas my belief is that muscle problems aren't on an on/off switch. They develop gradually and therefore there will be a grey area between normal and massively abnormal.

I have found forage testing (through Sciantec in Cawood, Selby) much more useful than blood testing as there isn't an appropriate reference range for selenium or GSHPX in horses (even the labs who carried out these tests for me couldn't provide a reference range, which kind of makes the tests pointless).

I wouldn't give any supplement or lick with selenium in it adlib to horses. Too much worry of them having too much or too little.

The thing which has proven the most useful measure of how my gang are doing in respect of muscle issues as a result of selenium deficiency has been blood tests looking at the level of the main muscle enzyme, creatine kinase, known as CK.

Even in the least affected pony, who no vets believed was abnormal, his CK has nearly halved since I started addressing the selenium deficiency.

Sarah

[heathera]

I tried Tola on the Pro hoof and she wouldn't eat it, even disguised in soaked Fast Fibre. She is the greediest pony ever and wolfs her food down with all sorts in, including bute, yet she wouldn't eat the Pro Hoof.

She eats the Pro Balance powder but I've gone back to the Top Spec balancer as they've always been fine on it and it has vitamins as well as minerals in.

[heathera]

I tried Tola on the Pro hoof and she wouldn't eat it, even disguised in soaked Fast Fibre. She is the greediest pony ever and wolfs her food down with all sorts in, including bute, yet she wouldn't eat the Pro Hoof.

She eats the Pro Balance powder but I've gone back to the Top Spec balancer as they've always been fine on it and it has vitamins as well as minerals in.

[harveydales]

Harvey is on Pro Hoof and l had no problems getting him to eat it which is odd because he can be very fussy.

[heathera]

I watched a human diet and nutrition program a few years ago where they got the dieters to drink glasses of water with individual minerals dissolved in it. If the person was deficient in the mineral the water was tasteless, if they weren't deficient it tasted foul. I noticed the same when drinking Berocca vitC and mineral booster. The first week it tasted a yummy orange flavour, then it started tasting a bit funny then it was just foul. Tola ate the Pro Hoof for about five days then became more and more reluctant and was choosing to not eat at all after about ten days of it.

[harveydales]

That's interesting, Heather. I know we are very deficient in Selenium here and rather high in iron. None of the horses I've ever kept here will touch Himalayan salt licks but they all like red rockies in the summer only. I recently read that Himalayan salt licks are high in iron.