Grey Roan Genes....

[Deleted]

Hi
Im new to this forum so sorry if i've posted in the wrong place...
i purchased what i believe to be a dales cross in July 2013.  He was born 2nd June 2011 and the first owner in the passport is Dennis Urwin from Colliery Stud in County Durham, so he must have owned the dam at this time?  I'm showing successfully in hand at local level but to compete at county level i need to register the dales part....(my best guess is he's part dales & part clydesdale but open to suggestions)
i know its a long shot but due to the unusual colouring would anyone be aware of a dales sire/dam carrying the gene who could be a parent/relative?

any help appreciated, thanks

[tinkerdorisalison]

Hello and welcome to the board. Your pony looks great!

Mr Urwin is a very well known Dales pony breeder, your chap may well be registered - have you had the vet scan for a microchip?

Your first point of call will be the Dales Pony Society, the secretary is called Jo Ashby and is very knowledgeable. www.dalespony.org/Society.html#Secretary

[Deleted]

thanks for the quick reply & your lovely comment.
he had been microchipped but it was never registered so mine are the first details on the chip.

Jo has been really helpful explaining the process of registering part breds too. sadly mr urwin stopped registering with the dales pony society a couple of years ago so my boy is passported with the british driving society with mr urwin detailed as the only previous owner.

im hoping someone may be able to provide an insight into how the colour genes work? as he is a grey roan, does that mean sire/dam must have been grey? or could they just carry a certain gene?

or someone on here may have owned the mare / stallion (either before or after mr urwin) & recognise the colouring / history of my gelding?

i realise i am probably looking for a needle in a haystack

[valerie n scout]

He looks a beautiful pony, I hope you find your info, welcome onboard too xxx

[cadeby]

Hi Susan. Welcome to Dalesfans.

I second what Evie (Minnie) says - your boy is grey, not roan, but he looks to be a nice stamp of pony. I hope you are enjoying having him

I know that you have spoken to Mr Urwin and didn't get very far, so maybe you could ask Jo if the DPS has a DNA sample from Colliery Jacob (a non-licensed grey stallion placed in Section X of the studbook due to a parentage problem) as a possible sire for your pony, or Colliery Millenium (a grey Dales mare, also Section X due to a parentage problem) as a possible dam for your pony. Good luck.

Helen x

[Deleted]

thank you for all your comments and advice - its all been a huge help. i hadnt realised how complex the search could be until i started digging.

faelan will be with me for life whether i can prove parentage or not. i've only recently started a bit of inhand showing & he's doing really well, but to show inhand at county level I'd need to at least have him registered as a part bred hence my investigating
i'll be mainly a happy hacker when he's old enough!, but i'd be really interested to find out parentage just out of curiosity.

thanks again - i'll post an update if i have any joy!

[harveydales]

Good luck with your research. He is a lovely pony and worth the effort.

[tinkerdorisalison]

Maggie (a member on here) knows mr urwin and may be able to speak to him to see if he could say which mare/stallion were used. then there might be a chance of registering at least part bred

but you might have to pay for DNA testing.

Its a shame but there aren't any classes for part bred dales.

[dalesnfellfan]

I have a Colliery pony too, Colliery Emerald III, and I also have been unsuccessful obtaining any information from Dennis Urwin about her past.

She is a pure Dales and registered with DPS but when I bought her a year ago as a 6 year old Dennis Urwin was also the only name in her passport, she was in poor condition and covered in sores and cuts, she had been through Appleby fair and I was her 4th owner in 2 weeks. I have no idea when Dennis sold her, where she had been or how long she had been in that condition, apparently Dennis is not too good with paper work or keeping records.

I also know how difficult it is to trace parentage as I also have a Fell gelding who I bought some years ago with a duplicate FPS passport, about a year later another pony turned up with the same passport as Spud (reg. name Charlie George). The FPS had DNA on record for the stallion Heltondale Roy II but not for the mare Greenholme Nora so both ponies were DNA tested and compared to Roy. It was expected that one pony would be by Roy and the other not a match, however when the results came in both ponies were by Roy, the society had lost trace of the dam so DNA could not be compared to Nora.

FPS and I contacted the breeder who was adamant that the stallion only ever served Nora 2 years running and no other mare, the other offspring Oscar Joe is accounted for so my boy is not the second foal. He only kept Roy 2 years and his next owner was adamant he never used him to serve a mare, but clearly this did happen at some point, we were unable to trace the previous owner of Roy and it is possible that Spud is the result of a liaison when in previous ownership but that would make him at least 18 and not 16 years old. My friend owned him since he was 4 and she doesn't think he was very much older than this by his maturity at the time though it is always possible, he certainly looks an old boy now and is going quite grey around his face.

Your boy looks lovely and I would agree that he looks grey to me, good luck with tracing his breeding, it's such a pity when ponies are not registered properly, especially when they are such nice ponies.

[Debbie]

Everyone's right, Mr Urwin and the Colliery ponies are very well known in the Dales pony world. Your boy is definitely a Dales pony, and I'll echo Minnie, I think he's a Grey Dales pony (not roan) and a Section B from the white down his nose.

Personally, I'd do the DNA test and see if you can find more on the parentage, simply because you might get lucky and find the parents are registered and can go forward with your boy. I think it's worth the money.

My own Blossom's a Section B (my avatar pic) and there's nothing ever against them (well, unless you're bumped against a Sec A in a Conformation class and all things being utterly equal, then too much white is considered a 'fault'). That said, if you're still eager, and can only go so far, would you be able to go further in a performance realm? I'm in America, so the rules are different when it comes to performance events. Some only take registered breeds, others are open.

No matter what, you and your boy look wonderful together Best of luck with him!

...editing to add: Welcome to Dalesfans!!!!

[Deleted]

thanks for the responses everyone!
im going to try the dna route & hope i get lucky, its as much for personal interest as anything...
Being grey has helped narrow it down slightly too.
If anyone speaks to maggie it would be fab if she could mention to mr urwin...even a heads up as to what greys he had at the time in the hope they may have been registered (my boys date of birth is 02/06/2011)
thanks again dales fans! xx

[maggie]

Hi Susan and a warm welcome to DalesFans.

If you send me a pm with your email address, I'll send you an email.

He looks like a pure-bred Dales to me, grey is not that unusual a colour in the breed, but the foals are generally born a dark colour and do have a tendency to show white on them, like your boy's blaze, so not many grey colts make it to stallion status, even though, in all other respects, they are very good ponies.

[Blackshadow Dales]

Your pony is gorgeous, good luck!