Rearing......yearling

[eveningsunset]

Wonder if some one can help just recently logan has taken to rearing when he is asked to do something IE back ,if you push him back because hes in your space he rears up not right the way up but front legs at least a foot of the ground ,i realize he is trying it on but how do i stop it ,it needs to be nipped in the bud now .Belinda.ps hes 1 year old on sat .

[JoM]

The little monkey jim!! He is trying it on isnt he!!!

I'm afraid I have never dealt with a youngster, so I dont really have any pearls of wisdom. However, if it was Dancer that did this, as long as he wasnt striking out at me, I would make him keep going backwards until he did it without the tantrum! At which point, big pat and move on to something else straight away. I would also do a join up session with him to re-establish who is boss! But D is 7, and not a baby like yours!!!

Sorry if that was no help! ;D

[juliansteve]

Zoey is 3 now and she used to do this whenever she felt like it (and still does on rare occassions). We did a lot of ground work - sending her back until she lowered her head. Lots of leading - in different directions - small circles anything to keep her focused. Really work that made her think but only for short periods. If she threatens to 'wave' now we give her a sharp jerk on the headcollar and growl!

[greydales]

I think with rearers you need to drive them forwards, not backwards - as if you do this then it makes it easier for the horse to rear again. What you don't want is for your little rears to become big ones!

Olivia has a tendency for this and was terrible as yearling and 2 year old, she would go up for the slightest reason. If she did it while I was leading her (provided I could keep hold) as soon as her legs touched the ground I would drive her forward. A horse can't rear if it is going forwards but it can if going backwards!

When I started lunging her she would try it as an evasion (she has thrown herself right over backwards as well) but she got a crack on the bum with the whip and if she so much as thought about rearing she'd get sent on quite ruthlessly! It has definitely made her think twice but I have to be very quick with my reactions.

A lot of youngsters do go up on their hind legs so try not to worry too much about it, but you definitely don't want it to become a habit!

[juliansteve]

Sorry I think my post wasnt clear at all. We only sent her backwards when we wanted her to go that way. Its taught her to do it in a controlled manner not when she thought about rearing.
She fell over once or twice and this really made her think!

[kirkcarrion]

A baby less than 18 months old won't be level for most of the time due to growth patterns, and I doubt they'll consistently have the balance to go backward properly without problems. So if you're teaching him to go back before he's even a year old (or just) then it makes sense to me that he'll go back with the front end before he works out how to go back with the back end and then there is only up to go if you insist.

I personally don't teach back to a yearling, I teach move over (ie sideways) to avoid the problem until they're caught up enough and I use that more than back to any youngster not fully levelled out ie intermittently between foal to 5/6 years.

Just a personal opinion but if they're struggling, why push for something that either produces a rearing habit or falling over or at the very least some confusion and possibly pain?

[Deleted]

Starry went through a horrible rearing phase as a three year old, I was worried to death about how to deal with it at the time. It doesn't sound very clever or technical but I ended up just completely ignoring her when she did it, and it stopped as suddenly as it started. She is an absolute angel now but it was very off-putting at the time. Good luck anyway.

[shirlnjazz]

I agree with the moving over rather than backing with a youngster, also forward movement rather than backward. Dont get into a fight with it and try not to do things that cause this upward movement as much as possible. Firm but calm is the words that come to mind, easier said than done with a youngster sometimes lol

[eveningsunset]

Thank you for all your advice ,i have taken it all on board ,he seems to have settled down abit again but then i haven't done any more work with him for a few days ,i have been having a horse behaviors once a week to help us with schooling etc and this is when it all started ,she was doing the backing up thing ,so will have to see how things go when she comes back .Belinda.

[charliedales]

good to hear logan's settled down a bit again, cheeky boy! Be interesting to see what the behaviourist thinks?
Not been mentioned, so don't know if it's something you do anyway, but i'd make sure he was rewarded at the earliest opportunity for going back out of your space, he shouldn't be there really, so as long as he's not being asked to do tons it shouldn't be too much for him? they only need to back one step at a time and then get reward for doing so, don't need to be doing loads of steps before reward. once that's cottoned onto it's easier to get the same result for them making first signals that he's doing as asked and then for just thinking about going back, in theory lol!!! ignore if i'm stating the obvious, am no expert by any means! hope he carries on the good behaviour now!

[flintfootfilly]

Backups are such an emotive subject! In dressage, even just four steps of backup seems to be considered a fairly advanced manoeuvre with many riders struggling to ask for any of those steps, let alone asking their horses to offer the backup softly and willingly. And yet, although horses don't tend to do much backup naturally, they DO offer it. I remember chuckling at Max, who on his second or third day out in the field as a newborn foal, cantered a circle to the left (on an undulating hilly field), stopped "at X", backed up several steps and then set off and cantered a circle to the right. It's something that could take many people a long time to train their pony to do, but there he was just having fun with it, using the backup to rebalance and position himself correctly to be able to change the lead!

I'm a big believer in backing a horse up, whatever age, as long as they don't have any condition that would make that difficult. It's a huge submissive gesture on the part of the horse, as is going sideways, and for the whole of the horses life, it's incredibly useful to be able to refocus their energy, attention and in particular their ATTITUDE, by using one of these simple manoeuvres. I'd far rather back a horse up for several circuits of an arena, if necessary, to refocus them and restore softness and willingness, than to tire them out physically by lunging them in circle after circle like some folk seem to do. Physical tiredness doees not produce a soft, willing horse in the long run - it just creates a fitter horse who's seen no reason to change his attitude. Whereas if you work on his attitude without tiring him out, then you'll get a better partner in the long run. That's my view anyway!

I'd guess that Logan's just testing a few boundaries, and that you need to first and foremost keep yourself safe (using distance and communication). Then I'd suggest teaching him the softness in the backup and rewarding that ,before expecting any more. A horse that rears is usually stuck in the shoulders or hips, and once you can encourage them to find a way to unstick their body, they can move freely again. I'd certainly not start thinking of him as being a "rearer". He's just stuck at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. You can help "unstick" him in several ways. If he feels that he's being pushed into backing up, he'll get more stuck and his only "open door" will be to go up. It might be helpful to think of the cue to backup as being something that causes him slight discomfort, just enough to cause him to DECIDE to move, to regain comfort. So you might just squeeze 2 fingers lightly on his nose, you're not aiming to push him backwards (that would be ridiculous for a human to PUSH a 300-400kg horse anywhere), but to cause him to want to move backwards, even just one step. As soon as he even shifts his weight a little back, take the cue off and reward in whatever way you choose (rest, treat, a rub, whatever). Build up slowly from there. Other alternatives might be to cause him to want to yield his hips or his shoulders to unstick himself, so you might work your angles so that he does single steps of turn on the forehand or turn on the quarters, and then ask for a backup again. If he goes up in the air at all, it's worth remembering that it doeesn't work to try and hold them there - they'll just put more pressure on. Much better to work your angles again by walking around to being diagonally in front of your horse so that you help cause him to unbalance slightly to the SIDE (and not over backwards). As soon as he comes down, release and reward. The more you can set things up so he sees backup as being a good thing to do so much the better.

I think it's Ray Hunt, and excellent american horseman, who talks about the value of "snake trails". Basically if a horse hasn't turned his whole body loose, from his jaw, through his poll, his neck, his ribs, his quarters, right through to this tail, then working "snake trails" with them will help to restore that freedom and that's when the horse will be soft and willing to work with. Snake trails take several forms, but would basically start off by tipping the horse's head gently from side to side. Tip to one side until you feel the resistance go, then release instantly. Rest. Then tip to the other side, even just a little, wait til the resistance goes, release instantly. Rest. etc. Works both on ground and ridden.

It's those lateral flexions, given softly and willingly, that will build up to give you a horse who is a joy to ride when the time comes.

..... if any of that makes any sense??

Sarah

[Manx Cat]

Sarah that was a BRILLIANT reply!

I have used these very same methods to help Mac yeild away from me.

He used to well, sort of crush me against the stable wall when he was confined. I dont think he was being malicious, just moving into pressure. To get him off me, I used to take a hoof pick, and where his girth is, I would press the handle of the hoof pick into his ribs.... (blunt but hard thing) If he created pressure, by pressing against me, he would come against the handle of the hoof pic first. I used the term 'OVER' the first time, he lifted a leg and tried to cow kick me away... not nice when your against the wall of the stable. I ignored this and continued to push with the handle.

AS SOON as he yeilded his pressure away from me, it was just a small amount initally, he was rewarded with the release of the handle, and lots of stokes and rubs and nice words.

Now, I only need to press gently with my knuckles on his side and use the term OVER for him to instandly stand aside. He walks backwards easily and freely using exactly the same method. I taught him the move over and away first, then when the same method was employed for back up, he did it instantly without a second thought.

I used to use this with Mhenna when she was a youngun as she was a bolshy, bargy typical highland to handle. When she went to be broken in, I remember the trainer telling me now brilliant she was to move off and away from the leg when asked. So this kind of training on the ground, is also very efficient for under saddle later in their careers as well.

Thank you Sarah for reinforcing what I thought worked as well.

Mary

[charliedales]

wow sarah, think you should be writing a book of your own!! am just working on the over thing with our yearling, just starting with asking to move the face away, almost as you said, he noves quarters quite readily, but not so soft in front, very interesting stuff!

[eveningsunset]

Sarah thankyou for your long reply ,it does make sense ,i have had to print it of so i can study it more .Belinda.

[kirkcarrion]

Hope it works out for you if you choose to follow what Sarah has suggested.

However, the caveat remains for me that, as she says herself, you should only back up anything if there is nothing that could make it difficult for the horse concerned. And to me a youngster will have balance shifts and thus potential difficulty occurring on a regular basis until it is fully mature so even if he manages today he may have problems next week, then be ok then not as the front and back ends are rarely in balance for more than a short period while the bones and muscles develop.

It occurred to me earlier but I hesitated to say it in case it appears critical, but perhaps your behaviourist is primarily trained in sorting out problem behaviours in adult equines (many courses are angled that way) and has less experience of developmental stages of foals to 5 years so hasn't fully assessed any conformational/developmental issues? In which case it may be the right tool but just at the wrong moment for your yearling to respond that way. Absolutely no criticism intended here, I honestly can't tell without seeing your boy in action with her, but there is as much controversy about what a youngster can/should do as there is about backing (under saddle or inhand) and my own opinion is that it isn't one thing or the other but a matter of tools and timing, either of which may be good, bad or indifferent depending. The tool may be fine, but in inexperienced hands a nightmare (eg some training aids which also raise controversy) or the tool may be fine but the timing out, without the tool itself being necessarily bad. I think sometimes the debates polarise opinions and the individual situation/animal/handler/physical status be overlooked a little.

Just an opinion, to be ignored, thought about or whatever. He's worth the investment of getting things right at this stage, whatever that means to you.