Sign of illness?

[SuzieP]

I've just been chatting with my cousin, Margaret, whose lovely pony was recently diagnosed as having liver failure. Thankfully the vet has treated her and she seems to be making a good recovery, although isn't out of the woods yet.

Margaret first noticed things weren't right when Zenith's crest became very hard and she straight away brought her in and treated her for laminitis, although there weren't any other symptoms. Then Zenith started fitting and that's when the vet was called.

But, the very first thing Margaret noticed that was different about Zenith - before her crest even hardened, was that the dip above Zenith's eye was bulging (don't know what it's called - on younger horses it isn't dipped in much at all, but as horses get older it gets deeper).

She's asked me if I'll ask you all if you've ever noticed the same thing on your horses??

We did have a horse on the yard a while ago which was prone to lami, and fitted as well and I remember noticing that the dip above her eyes was bulging. I just thought it was a peculiarity of that pony....but am now wondering.......

The vet seems to think that Zenith has been pigging out on red clover and that caused the build up of toxins in her liver.

[dollylanedales]

Prince our Shetland using to get a bulge above his eyes, when he had laminitis. Once the attack had passed, the bulge would go down again. I always assumed it was something to do with the laminitis ...obviously not, having read your post. But have never noticed it on any of my other ponies, not that they have really been ill, thank goodness.

[SuzieP]

I THINK it could have been lami toxins which caused the liver failure - although Zenith didn't have symptoms other than the thickened crest.

Can you remember - did the bulge show early on in the lami attack? Could it be used as an early indicator of impending laminitis to you think?

[greydales]

I remember years ago when I went on a riding holiday the lady doing our B&B bred Welsh cobs. She had one who was very prone to lami and was confined to a tiny grass area, and the first thing I noticed about this mare was the large bulge above her eyes. I can't remember if she'd actually had lami or was put in the starvation paddock for prevention!

I've ever seen that bulge on any of mine, including Toby who has had mild lami attacks.

[SuzieP]

Does Tobes have bulges above his eyes when he's got lami, Gill?

[dollylanedales]

It was only when Prince was actually hobbling around, and confined to his stable, that I was aware of the bulges, Sue. But just before an attack he ALWAYS got a hard crest. I knew immediately to stable him. He never ever had heat in his feet though, or none that you could feel. But over the years, I could guarantee that if his crest hardened an attack was imminent. Looking at it, hard crest, bulges above the eyes .....definitely something to do with the laminitis.

[harveydales]

Sue, as you know Quest has borderline Cushings according to his latest blood tests and the hardening crest, the bulging above the eye and lami attacks are all part of the syndrome as are raised liver enzymes. Not many vets seem to accept the liver enzyme part being linked to the Cushings but the latest research confirms this.

I joined Jackie Taylor's Metabolic Horse Yoahoo group where there is a lot of information on this sort of thing and links to the latest research. Can Margaret have a look: pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse/

Quest had the hardened crest and slight bulges over the eye when he had his last lami attack and this was also when his liver enzymes were raised. My vet thought it was co-incidence and that he might be suffering from an infection but after talking to others on Jackie's site I am convinced it is all part of the same syndrome - not neccesarily cushings itself but there are metabolic syndromes, not yet fully understood, which include all of the symptoms you mention. Quest's crest and eye bulge went back to normal very quickly, once I had the lami under control and once I got him off the particular bit of grass (which contained a lot of moss) I am convinced caused the whole episode.

[greydales]

Jul 6, 2008 20:49:26 GMT -1 SuzieP said:

Does Tobes have bulges above his eyes when he's got lami, Gill?

Never noted the bulges as such Sue but his crest was rock hard.

[greydales]

Just had another look at Toby - he doesn't have bulges which are obvious but the dips above his eyes are filled in - whereas Dan has hollows.

[bevbob]

I have also heard the bulging is more linked with cushings. Bobs eyes were like Gill has described Tobys when he had lami.
The metabolic forum is brilliant.... lots I dont understand but very informative and very helpful.

[olivia]

The bulges over the eyes was one of the things that my vet used to diagnose cushings in the absence of doing the blood tests for more conclusive answers. I can't remember if the bulge was a sign of the cushings directly, or laminitis which could be a result of the cushings, tho.

A lot of the herbs we gave Kahn were to support his liver, but I can't quite remember why, but it was to do with the cushings. I too joined the Metabolic Horse group which was very useful.

Olivia

[greydales]

I am also convinced that where horses have white hooves, the red 'bruising' you sometimes see (which farriers often tell you the horse has knocked itself) - is a case of low grade lami, where you don't necessarily get any symptoms but it's a sign that something is amiss.

I always notice these appear in all of mine with white hooves during the grass growing period, then they grow out over winter.

[harveydales]

Gill, I worry about this too. Strange thing is Quest, who deffinately gets lami, never gets this bruising and he has 3 white hooves but Harvey does show this bruising on his white hind, a red blob always on the inside of his off-hind.

This is the hoof he knocks so that could be the cause. Trimmers think it is due to slight flare pulling away at the hoof structures but I do worry about LGL.

[emmadales]

My mare had the buldging over the eyes, and she had been diagnosed with cushings. The buldges never went away from when they first appeared. They were very large aboutthe size of golf balls.

[harveydales]

Amanda - that's interesting. I know about the bulge above the eye in Cushings horses but I've never seen it and never knew how big it was. Quest does have early stage Cushings but no sign of any bulge as yet.