Dually Halter

[zeldalithgow]

I've heard of people loosing fingers by holding on to head collars, please be careful Richy

[lucydales]

Being controversial, I have a passionate dislike of pressure halters unless used in VERY gentle and experienced hands!

Not sure if it's the Be Nice or the Dually but one had metal pyramids on the headband which press inro the poll area when pressure is put on the halter. I would burn all of these! The poll has lots of nerves running close to the skin and is easily damaged (inc the optic nerves I think but don't quote me).

Do you really expect your horse not to associate the pain with you? Far better and more ethical to give them an incentive to be with you than the reason that if they try not to it will be very unpleasant/painful.

And breathe! Rant over. Sorry, I don't want to offend/upset/alienare anyone, I just hate badly used pressure halters. And yes, i do have the rope ones and have used them in the past though very rarely now, head collars are a red letter day our yard!

[SuzieP]

You'll just have to hate me then, Luce LOL! Being dragged across a yard or through a car park on countless occasions warranted stronger methods than cajoling a bossy horse to be polite.

Bea leads beautifully now - as I said - and we're closer than ever before. I can promise you he's definitely not scared of me and associates me with carrots and apples more than anything.

As you say though - it's the hands that hold it rather than the halter itself that are the problem.

Maybe if you're lucky enough to be able to start a horse and teach it manners right from the start you're onto a winner. But taking on learned behaviours can be bloody difficult and potentially dangerous.

[harry11]

I still luv the dually and if used right it is fine.

[lucydales]

I don't hate you sue, or anyone that uses these things, if that's the only tool you've got better used than your horse moved on to something worse. I just don't like these for the damage they do in brutal hands.

I know all about learnt behaviours (Choc won, Wiz and Amy didn't and the jury's still out on Pants!)

Celt I struggled with last year and now I wouldn't swap her, and I do have the benefit of knowing her early history and then the rest being mine.

I suppose what I am saying is don't think this is a magic bullet if you don't know what you are doing. Most bad behaviours take a long time to establish and then people want the cured overnight. There are no magic bullets, only time and consistency and patience.

Lx

[gypsydales]

I have used Mont yRoberts Dually with Ebony for about 3 years and wouldnt be without it even tho we rarely use it now. When presented with any new situation she would rear . I do think you have to do the work before hand asking the horse to step backwards and releasing the pressure before walking forwards again. You cant just put the halter on and expect the horse to behave. Ebony loads in a normal head collar now, no problem and hasnt reared for ages.

[SuzieP]

for you Luce. I know you don't hate me - I'm always open to a good debate, but you know that don't you. xx

[harleydales]

I have a Be Nice for harley because he respects it so I just have to put it on and he behaves. I used to use it for loading and for trot-ups at endurance rides because his trots would turn into mad-sideways-lashing-outs and he got me once and knocked me flying.

He only sat back on it once and never again. He realised how it worked and chose not to try it on again and recognises it when he sees it - but isn't scared of it or me, he doesn't run off when I have it.

I have one for Lady because she was dreadful for flinging her head around when I was walking her out prior to backing last year, she never sat hard on it but also respects it and no longer flings her head around.

[lucydales]

"Respect" is an even more interesting dabate and I'm not sure I want to start this!

Is "respect" created by fear of pain/bad results, or because that person/thing/situation is worthy of respect?

Respect, to me, implies admiration of the thing worthy of respect even if you personally don't like the situation for you. Respect implies fairness (which then takes you to morals and I really don't want to go there today! ;D )

Respect from fear to me is not respect, it is acceptable compliance due to fear of the consequences. That creates coersion and coercion usually leads to a retaliation at some point. That said, everyone/thing needs bounderies which if overstepped will lead to (adverse) consequences. That is how things learn acceptable community behaviour.

Where am I going with this? My lot know what "rules" I consistently apply (and if they don't the penalties are swift and severe so they soon learn!) so they rarely get challenged. Horse inter-business for me is not acceptable when there are people about!

Respect from fear is not acceptable, it is not proper respect.

[SuzieP]

What about horse behaviour though. How does a lead horse gain the "respect" of herd members? How is a new horse taught its place in the pecking order?

What is "join up" but a fear driven process where the horse (which may or may not already have trust and respect for the handler) is pushed away until it complies with certain behaviours and comes into the handler.

Are we, as humans, projecting our morals onto horses when we work out ways of gaining their "respect"? Are respect and compliance two different things? Yes, of course they are!

An interesting debate.......

[harveydales]

What an interesting thread. This respect issue is something I often think about when i watch my heard interact. Things were a lot calmer when Quest was around - just one look from him put every one in their place. Now Frankie is boss and he has to be quite forceful to exert his authority and will never have the same respect (btw he is very well mannered with humans, as was Quest).

Clearly both Sue and Jane are using the halters correctly and to good effect for both horse and human. The worry is when they are used in less knowledgable or sensitive hands. Not sure what the answer is as any one can go and buy a horse............

[SuzieP]

LOL - we cross posted Pam!

Yes, anyone can buy a horse along with severe bits, training aids, spurs, halters and all the latest books and videos which give a mass of conflicting advice and claim to have the secret to handling horses.

At bottom, and in my largely untutored opinion, we can learn a lot from observing the horse itself and the way a herd interacts - as Pam as done during changes in her herd dynamics. Horsemanship is rare - but where we find true horsemen and women who deal quietly, firmly and effectively with horses, that is where I would like to sit and learn.

[harveydales]

LOL Sue and we obviously think along the same lines. Yes, there are only a handful of people I know who have that almost magical, instinctive way with horses and these are the people I like to be with and hope some of it will rub off on me.

[harleydales]

I have to admit when I have half a tonne of very high pony bearing down on me, I don't actually mind if it is respect or fear - it is not on and in a herd situation he would have been seriously sat on and sent away! Sometimes safety does have to come into it.

Watching Apollo in action in the field, NOTHING I can do to any of them would hurt them as much as he does - he is brutal.

I only ever use the Be Nice in a situation that can become dangerous for horse or person. I don't haul them around on the halter, or sit back on the rope so it digs in their heads. If they 'choose' to play up or prat about and get a surprise that stops them doing it again then I'm afraid I don't have an issue with that. The time Harley sat back on it he was being a prat - he was NOT afraid of going into the box, he simply didn't want to go in it because there were horses around and grass to eat. Surely the reponce he got for not doing as he was told was the same - swift and severe - and he's never been a bother to load since. He crossed the boundary and he learnt a lesson from it.

I know a lot of people don't agree, and that is fine, everyone has their own way of dealing with things. To me safety is paramount - mine, the animals and the other people around.

[lyndales]

I agree whole-heartedly with what Jane has to say. Safety is paramount for all, and if it takes one of these halters to learn lessons, then so be it.

Lynda x