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Post by harveydales on Oct 21, 2010 5:21:27 GMT -1
I agree with you entirely, Jane. Safety is paramount and you clearly are able to use these tools correctly and you instinctively act with the right timing - just as a herd leader should. I have seen all the horsemen I respect the most act in a way some people might think cruel or harsh but they are right imo and the horses are happy and know where they stand. It is when certain tools are used in less experienced hands that trouble starts and this is what concerns me.
I had a horse who would rear dangerously when being bridled. We solved this in a way some people would think cruel - we used a twitch for a few days. This meant we could put a bridle on quickly and painlessly and by the end of the week she was no problem at all and from then on looked forward to being bridled. This was many years ago and today I would probably use slower methods and clicker training but the twitch method was probably the best for all concerned and less stressful for the horse.
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Post by SuzieP on Oct 21, 2010 6:05:20 GMT -1
Fairly soon after I got Bea I went to a competition with him, we did the biz and got ready to come home - and he wouldn't load. He wasn't scared, just being bolshy and opinionated as he can be at times. To make matters worse it was blowing a blizzard!
We had only tried to get him on a couple of times when a lovely woman came rushing over and said she'd help - she was natural horsemanship trained and would get him on in no time. I was so relieved and gladly accepted her help.
Bea had planted at the bottom of the ramp and wouldn't move for her - and so she proceeded to pick his feet up, one at a time and advance him up the ramp. The look on his face was a picture - and he let her get his front two feet onto the ramp before calmly stepping back and letting her start all over again.
This went on for ages and we were all getting frozen stiff. In the end the friend I was with grabbed her lunge whip, walked up behind Bea and growled "get on you horrible horse" - she never touched him with the whip, but he loaded immediately and proceeded to tuck into his haynet.
Did he respect the lunge whip - too right he did. In my care he's never been hit with one or been treated roughly. He didn't show a moment's fear throughout the whole loading fiasco.
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Post by greydales on Oct 21, 2010 8:34:40 GMT -1
I think that if you have got the time and patience, obviously the best way to educate your horse to do something YOU want it to do but IT doesn't want to do (which is usually leading or loading) is to spend however long it takes at home in an unpressured manner. I'm reluctant to use the term NH as I'm not a follower of any 'method' but what I mean is using positive reinforcement, usually via a treat/reward and no force. BUT, I agree that there are times when you need to do something, you don't have all the time in the world and the horse (which may have previously been compliant) decides not to be. I will then use whatever works with as least pressure as I can! This often happens with Dancer, he is not frightened of the lorry at all (he loads perfectly with companion, is an excellent traveller and has been all over the place!) but just decides he isn't going to load as he'd rather eat the grass around the lorry. Sometimes I don't have time to faff around, so if there is someone handy I can give a lunge whip to, one wave of this behind him and he's straight on  . He's hardly frightened but knows that if it's just me and him and a leadrope then he will win  . I've never had that much success with controller type headcollars, I've found that bolshy horses often fight against them and it often ends up a pulling match (which you rarely win!) and can cause damage. What has been much more effective in my experience is the knotted rope halters, the horses seem to respect this much more. I've even used a chifney in exceptional circumstances. Em's Livvi was a really bargy and strong youngster, I taught her to lead on a totally loose rope but sometimes leading her across the field was cause for great excitement and she would use her great neck to rear or tank off, and there was no way you could hold her (Cherry was similar!). Controller halters had no effect on her but the chifney did - she was quiet as a lamb, I had to use no pressure at all, and I think I only used it once. I would only use the chifney as a last resort though, as there is potential for much damage if they do fight or you use it too harshly. Livvi was also an absolute b*gger to load, but before she went to Em, I spent a week with my lorry parked on the yard and letting her inspect it totally at her own pace. By the end of the week she was walking onto it on her own! As others have said, horses use FAR more pressure on each other in the herd, to establish dominance. But the difference is that retribution is swift, it's accepted as the norm and the horse on the receiving end does not end up terrified of the perpetrator, unlike it does with some humans - they will even go back to grooming each other. They don't use restraining devices, or whips, which too many people use indiscriminately. I have found that horses can take punishment without ending up fearful and resentful, so long as it's done without anger, and you revert immediately back to a calm state of mind - as they do in the herd! Sorry I wrote an essay, if you got through that you deserve a drink!!  |
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Post by valerie n scout on Oct 21, 2010 8:57:31 GMT -1
thats one of the reasons why I stopped using the "be nice" with Scout,he hated the pressure x he really has issues so gentle, gentle all the way x
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Post by tomasnrichy on Oct 21, 2010 20:46:46 GMT -1
Just don't get your hands caught up in it tho, Richy! If Bea was really determined to bog off, hanging onto his headcollar would hurt me more than him and the edges of the webbing ones can be quite sharp. hi Sue , don,t worry i do not do this now , thank you for your Concern for me  worked for me at the time , probably not good for anybody else Richy  |
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Post by harveydales on Oct 22, 2010 6:10:32 GMT -1
As others have said, horses use FAR more pressure on each other in the herd, to establish dominance. But the difference is that retribution is swift, it's accepted as the norm and the horse on the receiving end does not end up terrified of the perpetrator, unlike it does with some humans - they will even go back to grooming each other. They don't use restraining devices, or whips, which too many people use indiscriminately. I have found that horses can take punishment without ending up fearful and resentful, so long as it's done without anger, and you revert immediately back to a calm state of mind - as they do in the herd!  LOL Harvey ended up terrified of Frankie which is what made me separate them in the end. It is very intresting to watch though how Frankie goes for other horses, you can see he is not really a natural leader the way Quest was. a look from Quest would put the others in their place but Frankie has to work hard at it. I could watch all day long. I agree with all you've said Gill, and I am very much aware that my own reactions aren't as swift as they need to be now so I have to find other ways..... |
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