Bay stallion?

[April]

I was just wondering if there are any bay dales stallions at stud in the UK and who they belonged to? (or greys with a bay base coat)

I've been thinking about putting Coral in foal over the next few years depending on how backing her goes next summer.

I would be specifically interested in seal bay coloured stallions if there are any, or any bay stallions with the pangare colouring..

I know the genes/diluters havent been researched much into these colourings but I would be interested to see what happened.. Obviously theres a chance of getting a black foal as Corals dam was black but I'd like to increase my chances of getting something else.

Corals colour genetics at a guess are EE Aa, so if I could find a seal bay stallion that was EE AtAt, I would be very interested as this would give me 50% chance of getting a seal bay. (so if anyone has a seal bay stallion that had both a bay dam and sire let me know!)

However I expect that most bay dales are heterozygous Aa, with seal bays being Ata due to the high numbers of black ponies.

(with t being seal bay and recessive; bay is always dominant to black so Ata would be seal bay whereas Aa is normal bay, AtA and AA would be normal bay, AtAt would be seal bay) this is just a guess though after looking at a bit of internet research, as the seal bay colouring hasnt been looked into much. Pangare, which is thought to be a colour dilutant has barely been looked into at all in horses from what I can tell?

I'm guessing that seal bay is where the ponies have more yellowy noses and bellys, whereas pangare is slightly lighter or more grey (like in exmoors or donkeys). I think seal bay and pangare can appear together, as if you look at my pony Jesters nose he has the seal bay yellowy colouring and the grey pangare colouring. However, that's just me guessing!

If anyone knows of any new research into these colours please let me know, everything that I've just said could be complete twoddle so do correct me if anyone knows better

But most importantly please let me know of any bay stallions!!

[cadeby]

I think your only hope of finding a seal bay/brown stallion is by VISUAL selection April, as there is currently only one laboratory in the world (Pet DNA Services of Arizona) who can test for the "t" on the Agouti gene and to date, no Dales stallions have been tested.
My "bay roan" stallion King looks like he has a seal-brown base coat and I do intend to get him tested at some point because, like you, I am interested in the whole seal-brown / pangare muddle

However, King is of no use to you as (i) he's in France, (ii) I don't stand him to outside mares yet and (iii) he has the roan gene "sitting on top" to confuse the issue!

I think Bryher, the brown filly he has sired for us this year out of a black mare, will be a genuine seal-brown but she hasn't shed her foal-fur yet so time will tell. I may pull some tail hair and get her tested before she leaves for her new home after weaning, purely out of curiosity.

Penny has a nice licensed brown colt Highclose Maverick in Lancashire.
Then there's the old bay/brown stalwarts of Wolsey Master Oliver and Hett Brown Boy, plus several grey/bay stallions with Dartdale and Rosebarr lines.
Nipna (Julie/Anna/Laura on here) have Dartdale Bobbie II (grey) standing in County Durham.

Jo Ashby, DPS Secretary, would probably be the best person to contact for the current list of available bay/brown stallions. Good luck.

Just remember - there's never any guarantees. I had a whole string of black colts out of my black stallion Wilf, switched to our new boy King (bay roan) and still got a black colt despite odds of 1 in 8 He's lovely though!

[April]

I've just had a quick look on pedeweb and the only bay/brown colt/stallion I can find with a bay/brown dam AND sire is Roandale Gay Lad, I think I saw him up for sale? Hope whoever buys him doesnt get him gelded

There's still no saying he would have the AA and not Aa anyway though, and I'm not sure if he looks to be seal bay or just normal brown/bay. He's the only lad that would have a chance of being AA though by the looks of it.. if he did have AA it means I would definitely get a bay/brown foal out of Coral though..
If I were to put her to a seal bay stallion that was Ata which I expect King (forgetting the roan factor) or I think Maverick may be? (he looks to have the yellowy nose in photos if I'm remembering right) I would never get a seal bay as I don't think she carries it and it's recessive.. I'll have to try and get her tested

I guess my only hope is to put her to a bay/brown stallion and hope it's not black, but saying that they're gorgeous as well so I doubt I'd really care that much!

VERY confusing!!

Coral has Dartdale lines so will stay away from there but will research into the others.. Thanks!!

[corabella]

Too late I think roandale gay lad is already gelded. He is owned by Charlie Parker and is I think still for sale. Good luck in your search for a match for the lovely Coral.

[corabella]

Maverick is lovely though. He has Bolam lines which are very nice too. At least to my inexpert eye.

[cadeby]

Aug 13, 2011 15:48:11 GMT -1 April said:

......
If I were to put her to a seal bay stallion that was Ata which I expect King (forgetting the roan factor) or I think Maverick may be? (he looks to have the yellowy nose in photos if I'm remembering right) I would never get a seal bay as I don't think she carries it and it's recessive.. I'll have to try and get her tested...

Wouldn't you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a seal brown foal from mating Coral (assuming she is heterozygous bay Aa) with a heterozygous Ata seal brown stallion?

Possible combinations are :

AAt = Bay
aAt = Seal brown
AtA = Bay
aa = Black

Kick me if I'm wrong (I'll blame it on post-anaesthesia brain damage, lol)

So probably worth the gamble if you can find a seal brown stallion

Re. current research - have you seen this article? Shame that lack of funding has put the Arizona lab's work on hold.

www.petdnaservicesaz.com/BrownPaintHorseJournal0410.pdf

[April]

Oh yeah of course I can get seal brown Helen, woooo!! It's me that's got brain damage.. I blame it on all the physics I'm having to learn at the moment ready to start teaching (ahhh!!) Hmmm 25% chance, definitely worth having a foal!! Don't think mom and dad will be too pleased haha I was supposed to be waiting much longer..

That article's really useful - it also highlights the whole problem with people calling their ponies bay or brown, Corals registered as being brown but I'm guessing that should really be bay. And I've been calling it seal bay when it should be seal brown..

So the 4 base coats are:
Chestnut, Black, Seal Brown and Bay.

With Bay including light and dark bays. Any horse with the yellowy tan muzzle/belly is therefore not dark bay as many people say, but seal brown.. (providing it's not a bay with sun bleaching!)

So in Dales ponies (assuming they don't carry any chestnut genes):

Black ponies are: EE aa
Bay ponies can be: EE Aa, EE AA or EE AtA
Seal brown ponies can be: EE Ata or EE AtAt

Greys and Roans could have any of these base coats.
(And assuming that none of the other genes/dilutants are in effect in Dales like the champagne gene..)

Would that make King a 'seal brown roan' instead of 'bay roan' then Helen?

So for everyone I've confused..

Coral an example of a BAY pony (no tan colouring around muzzle/eyes etc, although she is lighter especially on her belly which I expect to be pangare rather than seal brown, but I will have to get her DNA tested to know for sure)


Jester an example of a SEAL BROWN pony (tan colouring on muzzle eyes and belly, again he's not tested so I don't know for sure)


Are the Evangillis ponies bay or brown in that case? I'll have to keep an ear out for where they end up..

[cadeby]

Traditionally, the "accepted" terminology for all bay and brown Dales ponies is to refer to them as BROWN, because horse coat colours were defined centuries ago, way before genes were discovered. Lots of the older Dales folk would not dream of referring to even a bright bay as "bay" which makes things more complicated when you look through pedeweb because you can't take it for granted that a pony described as brown is genuinely brown. It is quite likely to be a breeder sticking to tradition.

It's definitely a case of modern technology overtaking terminology.
Fortunately in the Dales world it doesn't really matter because there are only a small number of acceptable colours in the breed and not many people need to make a distinction between type of "brown/bay".

Yes, I suspect that King (and therefore all "bay roan" ponies sired by Wharfedale Prince Regent out of black mares) are probably genetically "seal brown roans" rather than "bay roans" particularly as the article above states that "seal brown roans" tend to look very similar in terms of body colour to blue roans. King certainly has a platinum-blue body in the summer months, only subtley different to his blue roan half sister Pagan, but he has the tell-tale "bay" head, belly, stifles, etc.. UCLA Davis tested him as EE Aa NRn, but they don't have the ability to test for the seal brown "t" on the "A"

Anyway, you've made up my mind to pull some mane and get King tested by the lab in Arizona. That way if I get solid brown foals out of my black mares I know I can describe them correctly to potential buyers and not have to wait for a visual confirmation after they have shed their foal coats!


Eta - cross-posted with Evie. I love Splen's colouring and she raises the whole heckberry, dappling issue. Now I wonder if that's something to do with grey breeding, another mutation altogether -such as the silver dilution gene or a sun-effect on this specific type of brown melanin

My friend had a brown Shire mare (exactly the same colour as Splen) and she had beautiful dapples. The old Shire folk at shows referred to her as a heckberry or hackberry Shire. She had a grey grand-dam too!

[April]

Ohh those dapples are gorgeous! Jester gets them when he's not so fat (which is barely ever these days, poor old sod). When I took him to his first show an older lady came and spoke to me and told me she thought he must be a dales and had lovely heckberry colouring, I've barely heard of it since.

I've recently heard that dapples are created from the sooty gene, which is black hairs through the coat. So obviously black ponies wouldn't show the dapples but bays and browns would, along with greys, but in greys the dapples fade over time as the grey is dominant to the sooty genes. I don't think there's been any research into it though.

It's interesting that a lot of the 'seal brown' ponies have greys in their blood lines, I was told when I bought Coral that dales breeders like to have grey foals out of bay and brown mares as they have better dapples? Maybe the sooty gene (if there is such a thing) is being passed along the grey/bay/brown lines as a by-product of selective breeding.. or it could be quite common in dales but not known about due to the high numbers of black ponies..

I wonder if there are any true 'bay roan' dales in that case or if they are all technically 'seal brown roans'? Kings results would be very interesting If you put King to Tetley wouldn't you have something like a 25% chance of a true 'bay roan'? We should set up a horse colour genetics lab haha

[cadeby]

I have never looked into the sooty gene or dappling, but 1 of my black Dales mares and my black Percheron mare display dapples in the summer months
The Percheron had a grey dam, the Dales had a brown sire.

Charlie Parker at the Roandale Stud has bred some "proper" bay roan Dales out of solid bay mares. Visually, they look "pinker" than King, with a lighter body in the Summer months than King ever goes.

Tetley is in-foal to King for 2012, so yes, a 25% chance of a proper pink roany pony Personally, I prefer the blues!

What's the betting we get a black

Yes - forget teaching and set-up your own Lab April. I use a lab in Cornwall for standard colour tests. The guy who runs it is very friendly and seems happy to chat equine genetics with interested parties. The team at UCLA Davis who tested King and Pagan for the roan gene as part of their research program were also really helpful even though a lot of their research is still "classified" as it hasn't been published yet.

[cadeby]

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has BLACK Dales that display dappling?

[Anna]

Its not the most attractive picture but..



Quite a few of our black ones show dapples when in the best of health, Peggy (Tarbal Peggy Macdonald) gets some good ones.

[zeldalithgow]

Daisy (black) gets dapples don't think I've got a pic tho

[mickey]

It will be interesting to see if Rory dapples when clipped out- his dam is tarbarl peggy macdonald and his sire is carrock billy boy- who is also Peggy's sire.

[valerie n scout]

Scout's black and he dapples too...ps not Dales