Harvey's second blood test results

[harveydales]

The vet rang this morning with the results of Harvey's second blood test, taken 3 weeks after his initial tying up episode. We were fully expecting everything to be fine but although the muscles enzymes have improved from 3 weeks ago, they are still not normal.

I've been told to put him back on bute, keep him out but not ride him for another 3 weeks when they will redo the blood tests. I am now panicing that the recent rain will make the grass sugars shoot up and this won't be helping. But if I keep him in, then he isn't moving and that isn't good either. What to do.

Also I have no idea what is "normal" for Harvey. Maybe, if he has EPSM, his levels have always been raised?

This is driving me mad.

[zeldalithgow]

Oh dear could you muzzle him or fence off a small area and put hay out

[valerie n scout]

it's a pity the vet's results are making things more confusing for you Pam ...poor Harvey X

[harleydales]

I think Harley's are always a bit up, but not startling - maybe Harvey is the same? How are his muscles looking and feeling? Has he dropped weight or bulk? I weigh tape Harley every week to monitor what is going on.

For your interest, I was told to keep riding with Harley when he was having reactions, but he didn't tie up, so it is slightly different.

I would be tempted to keep him out, but restricted, with soaked hay. Or if you can't do that, in but walk him out in hand twice a day - if he is EPSM he needs to keep moving around.

There are 2 ways to find out if he is EPSM - the muscle biopsy that Harley had - 2 chunks of muscle are taken, one from the side of the dock and one from half way down the rump. It's quite invasive and has left a 'gap' in the muscle and white hairs OR you can get him DNA tested with hair, but this has to be done in the US I believe, and you need all sorts of import permits for the hair.

A lot of people go on the premise that if the symptoms improve on the low starch/carb diet, then they are EPSM and don't bother with testing. As Harley was down in a clinical environment at the vet school anyway and it was all under the insurance, I decided to go for it and get the biopsy done.

[harveydales]

Thanks Jane, very helpful.

Harvey's muscles look fine, maybe still a bit hard to touch but I think he's always been like this when he is fit. He seems fine in himself but is gaining weight. He does stretch in the stable but he always has done. It is so hard to know what is normal for Harvey and what is a sign things aren't right.My gut feeling is that, if he does have this EPSM syndrome, then maybe his levels have always been slightly high but shot up when he had his tying up episodes due to an unfortunate set of circumstances ie the grass growth spurt, a break from work, mounting Dolly.

I don't intend to ride him anything like remotely hard but I can't see why a short 30 min steady ride at walk would hurt him? Or maybe it could? Surely he is doing just this himself in the field? I just feel that the longer he is not ridden, the more of a handful he will be when I do finally ride him and it won't be easy or possible to "warm him up slowly at walk".

I've read a bit about the DNA hair test but didn't realise it was only available in the US. I won't put him through the muscle biopsy but would definately have the hair test if it could be done in this country. He had some small core biopsies on his rump in the spring foor his skin allergy but that was fairly minor and didn't bother him.

[harleydales]

I don't think a walk out in hand will do any harm as long as you can keep him in walk and swinging along, rather than jogging or chopping, if you know what I mean?

As far as I know the hair has to go to the US, but it might be worth phoning your vet to see if they can find out about it? EPSM is so relatively unknown in this country it's often hard to find a vet who knows about it!

[cadeby]

The University of Minnesota discovered the gene responsible for EPSM (called PSSM in the US) and they offer the hair-follicle test. It costs $65. They are probably the current leader in EPSM research. Here's their link, if you haven't already come across it :

www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

Don't worry about import/customs requirements for hair samples. I had to deal with this when I sent King and Pagan's hair samples to the USA for roan gene analysis. It's just a case of signing some extra forms which the lab will send to you if you explain that the sample is to be sent from the UK

[leannwithconnie]

Oh Dear Pam...what a quandary for you
Really have no advice to give but that the raised levels are as you suspect and "normal for Harvey"..
I think if it were me I would definately go for the hair sampling as a next step.

[harleydales]

The Minnesota Uni is where the lady I keep wittering onabout who is such a world force on EPSM is - Beth Valentine. There's nothing she doesn't seem to know, and she's so willing to help. Drop her an e-mail, see what she thinks - she knows me and Harley. Her e-mail is [e-mail]

That's interesting reading Helen - I see they say if the gene test is negative to go for the biopsy anyway, on the flow chart. It's a minefield!

[harveydales]

Yes, I think I will email Beth Valantine.

I don't fully understand the EPSM types. It says Type 1 EPSM can be identified with the DNA hair test but not type 2 yet. The muscle biopsy method will identify both type 1 and 2. I know this means different gene mutations and only one has so far been mapped/idntified but is it type 1 or 2 that our ponies are more likely to have? Presumeabley the muscle biopsy Harley had done confirmed he has EPSM but can't distinguish which type? Or can it?

[cutemangurdi1]

Pam,

I'm sorry to hear that but please dont worry. When Sigs had his bout his levels were raised for over 3 months and it was 10 weeks before I was given the all clear to ride- but I was allowed to have him out 27/7 in a sparse paddock.

I'll ring you

[harveydales]

Sept 8, 2011 20:20:17 GMT -1 cutemangurdi1 said:

Pam,

I'm sorry to hear that but please dont worry. When Sigs had his bout his levels were raised for over 3 months and it was 10 weeks before I was given the all clear to ride- but I was allowed to have him out 27/7 in a sparse paddock.

I'll ring you

Thanks Jacqui. I can't help worrying that the paddock I've got him in isn't sparse enough. Looking forward to a chat.

[corabella]

Sorry cant be any help but sending healing vibes for Harvey and you. Sometimes when you are in a medical/veterinary situation it is helpful to stand back and listen to your own instincts and be guided by your feelings as well as the science.

[harleydales]

I've no idea which one he has to be honest, but the treatment for both is the same so I don't differentiate.

It boils down to whether you want a definative answer to Harvey's condition - I did, so went for it, but if you are happy to just go on the theory that he is EPSM then maybe you don't need to bother.

You can always phone me too if you want to Pam, I know what it's like to be lost in the middle of it all and not knowing where to go for help.

[harveydales]

Sept 9, 2011 7:32:47 GMT -1 harleydales said:

I've no idea which one he has to be honest, but the treatment for both is the same so I don't differentiate.

It boils down to whether you want a definative answer to Harvey's condition - I did, so went for it, but if you are happy to just go on the theory that he is EPSM then maybe you don't need to bother.

You can always phone me too if you want to Pam, I know what it's like to be lost in the middle of it all and not knowing where to go for help.

Thanks Jane. I haven't rung you because I know you are busy but will do so.