Blue eyed Dales pony??

[Debbie]

I saw a photo of a Dales pony posted on Facebook a few weeks back now.

It's a Dales Pony, looks like they are at a show ....and he's got BLUE EYES!

The only lead I've got is "That has to be Castle Hill Paddy"

This is the firstever Dales I've seen with blue eyes, and yes he's striking, but how on earth does he have Blue Eyes?!?! Where does that genetics come from? He's turned away from the camera so I can't see if he's got any white markings on his face, but I didn't think Dales Ponies have blue eyes?

*** Photo is removed as per the owner of the photo. I deeply apologize for any affront, or destress I may have caused by sharing the image without asking permission to post on here. ***

Also did not mean any destress or harm by asking after the pony, his genetics, etc. I've never seen a blue eyed (is this what is called 'wall eyed' in the UK?? ) Dales previously, so in my enthusiasm, I didn't mean to imply anything other than enthusiasm for learning more. Again, I apologize.

[harveydales]

I didn't know about Paddy either. I think it must be down to a mutation while an embryo?

[Debbie]

I wonder if blue eyes are considered a fault for showing? The only thing I could think is sometimes white markings will cause the foal to have blue eyes. Sure wish a council member could tell me. Paddy's the first I've ever seen with blue eyes.

And I must add, I've nothing against blue eyes, Dundee has one blue eye and I think it's beautiful, I just had never seen a Dales pony have one before?

[Fi]

colorgenetics.info/equine/eye-color-horses

This article seems to suggest blue and other coloured eyes are associated with cream or champagne genes, and white markings. But thos can’t be the case with a Dales Pony?? So it must be a random mutation??

Pretty tho, and very striking

[valerie n scout]

Pity Helen isn’t about she knows about these things x

[dalesnfellfan]

I saw it on FB too, not sure whether I like it or not but wouldn't be against any odd markings etc if the pony is good.

[cadeby]

Ooo, this is quite a complicated question, but I'll do my best

I haven't seen the photo. Can anyone paste it here?

A lot would depend on whether or not Paddy has white socks and/or a blaze/star/snip? If he has any of these, then one of the white spotting genes, is probably responsible for his blue eyes.
There are many known white spotting genes, and it is suspected there are many more still to be discovered.
To date, the equine geneticists still don't know exactly what gene/genes cause standard white markings such as stars and socks in horses, so there can't be a definitive answer, but possible options are :

1) Frame overo ; normally this gives a lot of jagged white patches and a lot of white on the head, but occasionally you can get minimal expression and the horse appears to be a solid colour with blue eyes.

2) Sabino ; normally this gives a lot of jagged white patches with obvious flecking/roaning to the patches, but occasionally you can get minimal expression and the horse appears to be a solid colour. There are documented cases of black, bay and chestnut Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses and Arabs with blue eyes who test positive for one or more of the sabino genes, but you have to treat this finding with caution because sabino gene genetics are complicated and the scientific understanding of them is changing and expanding all the time, so it could be that the blue eyes are inherited by a different, as yet unknown gene, that is simply linked to sabino.

3) Splash ; still considered to be a rare gene but proven to be linked to blue eyes. Horses with a splash gene usually look like they have been stood in a bath of white paint but occasionally you get minimal expression and the horse will have virtually no white markings on their body. However, a splash horse would usually have at least 2 white socks and/or white facial markings such as a blaze, star, snip etc.. The blaze is often quite distinctive - bold, straight-edged and does not extend over the lips. If a splash horse has a star and/or snip, these are usually offset to one side.

Without seeing a photo of Paddy, my best guess would be that he carries splash. Splash is thought to be present in Gypsy Cobs, Welsh and Clydesdales, although still not proven in these breeds !

2 copies of the cream gene do cause blue eyes in horses, but this would be very noticeable as it would dilute the coat colour of a black horse to a smoky cream, so Paddy can't be that.
Likewise, the champagne gene can cause blue eyes (although these are often lost as the foal ages) and champagne would also cause a very obvious dilution of the coat colour on a black horse, so I don't think Paddy can have that either.

[Debbie]

Thank you so much for the reply Helen! I'll do a quick upload of the photo for you to see, then I'll go back and re read your post I don't have access to the DPS studbook, but as we have his name, maybe the colouring and any markings will be listed with the Society??

**image removed as per the owner of the photo**

[cadeby]

Ha ha. I sat and thought about all of that, then typed it all out, then noticed Fi's link which pretty much says the same thing in a much better manner !

I have the stud books. I'll look up his white markings when I get a chance....

[Debbie]

Fabulous!!! I look forward to the further sluething when you get the chance!!