It's all gone Pete Tong, what now, please help?

[JoM]

Im afraid Im a 'firm but fair' believer. I will not be taken the proverbial out of! I am the 'higher species' and he will respect me! I am all for the natural horsemanship and am amazed by some of the results it shows, but I dont think it is a universal language with some of them!

Sometimes, you just have to go in there - all guns blazing and not come back out until you have won! And, unfortunately, if that means a few tanned ar*es, and hurt pony feelings along the way - tough!!!! Stand your ground and be really strong with him - about anything and everything - you dont want to end up underneath those big feet, like I did with Dancer! I was to blame for that - for been soft with him! I can understand why you are so sceptial about your onboard work - no one wants to be bronked off! So, work hard on your ground work - MAKE him do things he doesnt want to do - and keep making him. If he rebels - rebel right back at him! Dont back off from him - make yourself big, and get ANGRY with him! He needs to respect you and know that you are boss and he has to abide by this. He is really trying it on with you! I'm afraid i would have snapped by now and probably beaten him into a pulp - or chased him round until we could both not move anymore! You must have the patience of a saint!

[merlinalison]

You said it yourself - he's a stroppy cob! That sort of little objection (or stop) followed by a bigger objection (or buck) followed by a real protest (or series of bucks) is absolutely typical of a horse who is being bolshy rather than a horse that is in pain - you can almost imagine him saying "I warned you..." Making him carry on so that he doesn't get his own way and stop work when he feels like it is the solution - but very hard if the little s*d has shaken your confidence and you're on your own. He's busy trying to train you not to ask him to do anything he doesn't want to do - now is the time to be firm or get someone else to help you be form with him so that he learns that actually its easier to do what you say the first time you ask because thats less work than fighting for ages and THEN having to do what you say...

Good luck - it sounds like you've come a long way already compared with how you were earlier in the year - good for you.

[admin]

Glad your getting some help with him - it's tough doing it all on your own.

I agree about sometimes you do need to get firm - I'm the softest person going when it comes to my animals, but even I have been very INSISTENT with TIlly (i.e. if she rears up at me when lunging then she'll feel a lunge whip across her butt! - my safety comes first EVERY time). Also you don't see alpha mares in the herd being all nicely nicely - a horse crosses the line it gets a kick in the guts!!! The trick is - get tough, but NEVER get angry. The only time I'll call off a schooling session is if I get angry, as anger never achieves anything.

Good luck - and keep us updated.

[jacquidales]

Good luck with your lesson. I've got to be honest and although he may have confidence issues to some extent, I also think he is taking the p*** out of you- or trying to. He sounds full of his own self importance.

Although I'm a fan of some NH techniques, I also think that some people have/are placed in danger beacuse they have srong willed horses who need firm handling (and I don't mean beating- I don't even use a crop myself)and following these positive horsemanship ideas to the letter is leading to very scary situations.

I hope you find a way through it, but if you have to let him go for your own safety, then do so. You do not need to feel guilty about it.

[rebeccajane]

Hi Kady - ondered how you ere etting on

I love my farrier dearly - but .... he has taught Bouda if she bergers about she dosnt have to do it, to the point that she had to be tranquilised last time I wanted a set of shoes

So when I came to clip her last week (anyone else got a Yeti yet?) she did the same to me, running back, going up, flailing at me with her front legs, in deference to my vet who said she probably worries about the noise I had stuffed her ears with cotton wool before we started.

She broke two lead ropes, and hit me twice with flying front feet..... however She NOW HAS A CHASER CLIP, no stick - just me and the clippers, calm, a little use of rude words - well alot , a short lecture on how Iwas the human and she the equine and so I make the decisions, and just kept on clipping, eventually she just packed in. By the ime I was onto the belly she wasnt even fidgeting.

It took ages I got hair in every orifice and Im not saying itd win any prizes, and as she'd done it before I knew she was just extracting he urine, but it just goes to show what manipulative little sweethearts they can be.

[Deleted]

I've been lunging him on my own today, and it wasn't too bad, he got stroppy on the hard rein, but only went as far as one cow kick and a lot of bad-tempered head tossing, and I kept at him until he'd done a nice circle, and then finished with a couple of nice circles on the easy rein. And I didn't dole out any sweeties either!!

It is a shame that the clicker training didn't work for everything, I do like the concept of it and it worked wonders on my other pony who was really nervous. Horses for courses I suppose.

I am definitely not scared of him on the ground (although I was at one point) but not sure about riding, I also think I must be feeling tense as my pony bucked when I got on her on Friday, which she never does. Maybe I need to take a hip flask!

Thank you so much everyone who has replied, it has been really helpful, and has stopped me from feeling mean or guilty about getting tough (although I am sure the Simpsons would not approve!!) Merlinalison, your voice-over is right on the money I think!! Jo, yes I think I have got the patience of a saint, Olivia, I am getting tough (about time) and rebeccajane, congratulations on getting that clip finished!

I have been making excuses for him for years, time I stopped! I've managed to get a pic of him on photobucket, but can't get it on here, can anyone help (if you'd like to see the little horror).

[bevbob]

When I first got Bobs he never used to stand still when I was hosing his legs and deliberately tried to step on my toes, he also used to nip me until one day I got really fed up of him and kicked him hard on his side then led him to the hose and hosed his feet, he stood as good as gold from then on. I also had to kick him when he kicked out in the stable and he has never tried anything like it again. His reaction was shock, he jumped from one side of the stable to the other and looked really sorry for himself.
I dont like kicking him like that but I think sometimes you have to show them they cant take a pop at you.
If they were out in the field and did something to another horse they would get a swift kick so its only behaviour they know.
Good luck with him, I feel I have a fantastic relationship with Bobs now, he can still push me all over the place but I can deal with that its the bully behaviour I cant stand.

[Deleted]

I am really looking forward to Tuesday Jacqui, I'm sure Charlie will have some good ideas.

Last night my daughter took our pony out while I stayed at the field to work with the monster - he did everything perfectly, the lunging, the yielding of hindquarters and neck, backing up, walking over tarpaulins, etc etc. What a good boy I thought, and took him for a walk to find daughter and pony (first time he's been out since the bucking episode). As soon as we were out the field gate he turned back into a git, waving his head at me etc. kept having to back him up out of my space. Took my attention off him for a second when I saw the girls coming back and he bit me on the ribcage just underneath my bra stap, owww, now have a dark red tooth mark and a bruise coming. Funny you should mention nipping Bev, this is the first time I've been bitten. I don't think he is impressed by the lack of clicks and sweets, but it now seems to me that the clicker training papers over the cracks rather than actually setting up the relationship - well, with him, anyway. Well fed-up, can't even imagine being able to feel safe riding him again.

[rebeccajane]

I hope you gave him what for - the little SOB - definately trying to dominate you

[Debbie]

I have to say I ran into exactly the same scenario with Lady Bear and the clicker training. Not that I'm keen on clicker training to begin with....afterall, if the horse/dog/whatever isn't hungry, they're not going to 'perform'. All it did was make Lady Bear FAR more rude than she was originally. Turns out all her previous owners did was give her sugarcubes ~ constantly.

[jacquidales]

It'll be interesting to see what Charlie says as some horses who are really lacking in confidence can be the most outwardly aggressive.

I did come across one a few years ago now who sounded so like your cob it was untrue. He came froma stud and had had issues from the day he was backed. The people who owned the stud were kindness itself and he had certainly had fair but firm handling. He was just a natural born git. We tried all sorts of techniques but he was just so agressive and one day after nearly having my head taken off my shoulders beacuse he didn't want to lunge, and witnessing him amost kill a pregnant mare- just because he was in a bad mood- he went back the the stud. They said he was destined to stay there as he was so horrible, who else would have him. He had the face of an angel and buckets of confidence with traffic etc. but was an absolute pig.

I hope you have more success with your cob.

[Debbie]

You know, you really hate to say it, but some really are just born that way, Jacqui . Its like they have "Alpo" stamped on their forhead no matter how kind/fair/steady you are.

[valerie n scout]

my heart goes out to you, they can be scary beasts when thay want to be our, 3 year old has his moments, all the luck in the worldxx

[Deleted]

Hi everyone and thanks for all your replies and encouragement, it means a lot. Anyway here is another update!!

We've had a couple of sessions with Charlie now, one of which was this afternoon - he tried to kick me today a couple of times (Storm that is, not Charlie, lol). He is such a naughty boy if he considers he's done enough or he doesn't want to do it, all I was asking was for him to walk on a circle, I let the rope get too slack and got his bum (or rather his back feet).

Charlie says he is a difficult horse, and when I said 'yes, for a novice' he replied 'for anyone', so I don't feel quite such a failure!!

I have lots of homework to do, plus written notes to follow, which are very good and clear, and I think a bit more respect is starting to come my way. You would all have been very proud of me if you had seen me chasing him round after he'd taken his potshots, Charlie thinks I am coming on! He is coming once a month-ish, with the view to getting the riding going in Spring, or that's the plan at the moment. Gives me the winter to get lots of riding in on my good girl, with the view of getting as secure a seat as possible, although hopefully he will be such a good boy by then he won't want to buck.

[JoM]

Well it sounds to me like you are making progress already!

As Charlie has said, he is a difficult horse!

Its refreshing that you are 'dealing' with him instead of washing your hands of him and selling him on for someone elses problem.

I really hope that the ground work you are putting in now and through the winter will bring out the best in him and set you off on the right foot next spring.

Take pleasure in giving as good as you get with him! LOL I take great delight in chasing after Dancer and shouting blue murder if he has popped a buck in my direction - which he does if his food isnt put down quick enough! I have been known to throw things at him too!! Rug, haynet, halter, leadrope, food bucket - you get the idea! I'm a cr*p shot and havent hit target yet - but I get the same pleasure as he broncs away and the 'stand off' commences! LOL