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Post by JoM on Oct 2, 2006 8:04:13 GMT -1
As it is coming back into winter  and showing season is done, I am gearing back into dressage mode. However, as I only do Prelim I cant use the pelham anymore for the tests and without the pelham the outline is not offered and it becomes a battle of wills, which ends up with us on the forehand and falling over!  My instructor has said that we could start using draw reins to remind him that just because he is in a snaffle, it doesnt mean he cant give the outline that he does in the pelham. We are going to attach them onto the bottom of the saddle - which I believe, after doing a bit of reading will make them running reins?, rather than from the underneath of the belly, which is draw reins? Has anyone else used them, (draw or running) and did you find them effective? By no means am I going to have him cranked right in by the way - they are purely a schooling aid to help me as I'm not as strong as he is! LOL |
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Post by fran on Oct 2, 2006 8:34:51 GMT -1
i will watch this one with interest jo! one of my instructors uses the draw reins when we lunge. the other instructor (nat horse) is so against them and insists we work on it coming naturally and the d reins dont teach softness and train a false outline. ( this is their beliefs - with my little knowledge, i have no idea whats right and wrong). its interesting what you say about the bits. i keep being told to ride in a snaffle and sam does have his head up a lot but does give an outline only in walk apparently we have to work on it in trot now. i just dont know how lots of other people ride in so many different bits its all very confusing to me.
karen
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Post by JoM on Oct 2, 2006 8:52:47 GMT -1
As with most training aids Karen, I firmly believe these things are only as lethal as the person swinging off the end of them!!  I have a funny feeling that this could be an interesting thread LOL It is the poll pressure that the pelham gives (and the curb action) that encourages Dancer to drop into an outline. As soon as the snaffle goes in - Mr Pokinose appears, we are fighting to get off the forehand and I am fast loosing battle. The differance is that he can do it (as shown with the pelham) he just chooses not to when the snaffle goes in! You can see the differance it makes just by looking at the pics With Pelham!  With snaffle  The head carriage he has given with the pelham in the pic is absolutely what I want from him! I dont want him folded in half - just carrying himself a little better. |
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Post by dalesponyrider on Oct 2, 2006 8:58:37 GMT -1
This is exactly what I found with my D! Same scenario! I found that lunging her with side reins worked. I concentrated on getting her moving FORWARDS into the bit. I've done lots of spiralling in and out of circles on the lunge and lots of changes of pace. It's worked a treat. I hadn't noticed how much better she was in a snaffle until I rode past someones house and caught sight of her in a lovely outline reflected in a window! LOL!
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Post by admin on Oct 2, 2006 10:55:04 GMT -1
I agree Jo that any piece of kit is only as good as the person on the end of it. However I have NEVER seen anyone use draw reins correctly - and that includes several top dressage riders at my old yard. As you say that Dancer tends to fall onto the forehand I really don't think that draw reins will help. In my opinion they will (without a LOT of effort from you) make him more on the forehand as he will be less willing to use his hind quarters. I do feel for you tho - Tilly is the same, perfectly capable of working in a reasonable outline - she just chooses not to! The only way to get her working nicely is LOTS of circles, and lateral work to encourage her to use her bum. Plus the occassional judicious use of spurs to remind her to go FORWARD! Oh and the worlds longest schooling whip. I very occassionally do use a gadget to help us out. But by occassionally I mean maybe half a dozen times in the 6 years I've owned her! I favour things that have an element of poll pressure, rather than solely relying on bit pressure. Tilly also totally backs off anything which is too restricting (she won't even work in side reins). So I use a lungee bungee which is a long piece of elastic which runs over the poll, through the bit rings to either the saddle or the girth, depending on what action you want. I also use this to lunge in. It is very stretchy, so it doesn't force them anywhere, just makes it more uncomfortable to be doing the wrong thing. There is of course the risk with anything too elastic that they learn to lean on it. So you've got to make sure they go forward in it. Good luck with the stressage. Olivia |
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Post by harveydales on Oct 2, 2006 12:01:26 GMT -1
I have to agree with Olivia on this one. I've also never seen draw reins used correctly. I don't like gadgets in general, they tend to mask the problem rather in the short term rather than solve it. However, I did use an Abbot davies very briefly on one occasion under supervision in a lesson just to get a point across (to me and Harvey) but, as Olivia says, to use anything like this you need an AWFUL lot of effort/leg. So in a way, what your instructor is saying does is similar to mine - under supervision for a one off it might help get the message through when all else fails.
I don't think our Dales are easy at all, as they are very strong, are physically built and bred to be on the forehand as they were pack animals and the ones like Harvey are basically lazy and give nothing for free and until he carries you forward you're fighting a loosing battle. It took me 3 years of hard work to get him to Medium level and to see him now, you'd think he was a beach donkey! Don't you just love them!
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Post by greydales on Oct 2, 2006 12:43:52 GMT -1
I'm afraid I'm another who is very anti draw reins, they won't teach a horse or pony to carry itself better, only create a false outline.
What mouthpieces are your snaffle and pelham? Have you tried a baucher - which does give a little poll pressure and is dressage legal.
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Post by JoM on Oct 2, 2006 13:02:30 GMT -1
Is a baucher similar to a hanging cheek Gill? Lisa has a hanging cheek for Lea and I have debated a borrow with it before as I do know they create poll pressure. My pelham is a french link rugby pelham, and the snaffle is either a loose ring french link or a straight bar mullen mouth My instructor is only wanting me to use the reins under supervision, and only to remind him that this is what he should be doing I think. Certainly not a permenant fixture as to be honest I am not usually a 'device' person. I agree whole heartedly that dales ponies are hard work! LOL People think that cobs are so easy! Until they get off, their legs ache, they are sweating pounds off and have headache from constanlty having to be one step ahead of the game with them!  |
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Post by greydales on Oct 2, 2006 17:36:12 GMT -1
Hi Jo, yes the baucher is the hanging cheek - why don't you give it a try? It doesn't have an awful lot of poll pressure but you never know - if Lisa has one then at least you haven't wasted money if it's no good (says she who has a cupboard full of bits!).
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Post by Biggerside Benwell on Oct 2, 2006 19:24:58 GMT -1
I was going to say a hanging cheek also! Go for the french link version though Jo.
Ive never used draw reins myself but I have seen them used properly and abused. You could always try them for a few times, like you say under supervision and see if they make a differance?
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Post by merlinalison on Oct 3, 2006 7:44:08 GMT -1
I'm afraid I'm another anti-draw rein person and agree wholeheartedly with what Olivia has said. I was going to suggest looking for a dressage legal bit that gives a little poll pressure but see GIll has beaten me to it - and named one too, which is more than I could do....
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Post by katiejane on Oct 4, 2006 11:41:24 GMT -1
i do ride nancy in draw reins sometimes to remind her how she should be going, and i use side-reins for lunging and ride her in them for about 10mins of a half an hour schooling session-i'm not a fan of gadgets really but ten years of not using them and i have to admit ive sucomed.
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Post by julie on Oct 15, 2006 21:20:07 GMT -1
I hate to say it but I would be tempted to spend the money on a new instructor. outline is created by engaging the back end not hoicking the nose in. i would suggest a french link hanging snaffle - preferably a JP one which are cheaper and softly bent. I would then ask your pony to learn to be mpore off the leg so as you are not having to work so hard. lunging in side reins will help as people have said but I would not advocate draw reins for anyone. When I did the classical dressage training we had to judge the national championships by video. everytime a horse entered the ring you could see it had been in draw reins and a cry of draw reins with hoots of laughter followed. You can so see the difference! you have a lovely pony who looks that he could have lovely paces and offer an outline given a little more engagement from behind. keep going as you are doing nicely as you are.
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Post by JoM on Oct 17, 2006 17:37:54 GMT -1
Thanks everyone! I have started working in a french link hanging cheek and he is going very nicely in it. We had a lovely elevated canter in it during our lesson on Sunday - I was very impressed, and so comfortable I over relaxed and took my leg off So someone downed tools LOL Southerner, I realise that outline with draw reins is an illusion. It was just a thought to do it as a one off under supervison to remind him that just because he is in a snaffle, it doesnt mean he cant work. Hopefully the hanging cheek will do the trick. I would never swop my instructor - she has brought us so far and we have achieved so much with her. There have been times she has suggested things and I have said no as I didnt think it was right for us at that time, but on the whole she understands us (me inparticular!) and gives me confidence to do things I wouldnt have done before. I would never have believed D could win a ridden class or do well at dressage until she came along! Draw reins were never going to be a permenant fixture - just a kick up the butt! LOL Hopefully they wont be required!!! Roll on poki nose free dressage!!! ;D |
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Post by SuzieP on Oct 17, 2006 21:32:01 GMT -1
Sounds like you're doing great, Jo! There are so many different schools of thought on the use of gadgets, it's ever so difficult to find your way through the conflicting advice sometimes. Like you, I have an instructor I trust who has years and years and years of experience and understands me and Bea very well. I wouldn't change her for the world.
Good luck with the stressage this winter.....
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