advice please ............

[angie]

I would be very greatful for some advice please regarding Dolly. Her history so far is, she was running unhandled in a herd until she was 2 yrs old. Then the breeders cousin took her to break in (thinking that she was 3 yr old) - she later found out that she was only 2 yrs and infoal. So left her to have the foal.

Dolly has only ever been handled by one other person so is understandably nervous. She has never been taught to tie up properly. I got the farrier out recently and she reared up and panicking struck out with her back feet. I know that it is just a question of more handling but I am not sure how the best why to teach her to tie up is? My farrier says she needs to be swung but surely she will just panick and break away? Also she will pick up her front feet but kicks out with her back - do you think she is sore still? ( her foal was weaning about 2 or 3 weeks ago).

Thanks for your advice

[Deleted]

I bought a hanovarian x welsh d as a 3 year old who was well handled but had never had his feet picked up. It took us ages but we got there eventually. We started by just running our hands down his legs so he got used to someone touching his legs and feet, if i was sweeping in his stable i would touch his feet with the brush. Some people have a rag on the end of a stick to touch them with if you dont want to risk been kicked. His fronts were easy but the backs are there weapon so they feel vunerable when they are lifted up. When i got to the stage where i started to lift them up i didnt fight with him if he tried to kick or snatch them away as im sure i would have come off worse, but if he let me hold them for even a second i praised him. Dont pick them up high to start with even if its just a cm above the ground. If you try to do it every day it will come eventually.

As for tying up im sure there will be alot of conflicting advice on it. Yes you could swing her, shes abit old but it could work, iv seen the odd one swung at that age but if she got away you wouldnt get another chance and it might make her worse. Plus there is alot of people who dont like swinging them now. If they are tied up for a tiny foal there is often no need.
I would maybe try putting the rope through the ring and holding the other end to start with until she gets used to standing near where she is going to be tied. if she was tied near a friend she might not be so wary of it and copy the other pony. IL admit im abit stumped on this one as iv never had one that wouldnt tie up. Daleslady might have some good advice as joanne was pretty wild when they got her. (hope you dont mind me suggesting you penny).
If you want any help give me a shout.
Jo

[admin]

Under NO circumstances would I ever swing a horse - it is totally uneseccary (can't spell!) and IMO down right cruel. You could so easily end up with a horse with a seriously injured poll, or even worse a dead horse with a broken neck.

SOrry - but I feel quite strong on the subject!

Does she lead well - does she understand about giving into pressure. Monty Roberts isn't my favourite person, but I think he talks a lot of sense about horses naturally moving into pressure. So when they feel the head collar pulling their natural reaction is to pull and pull against it.

I'd start off by making sure your girl truely understands about yielding to pressure on her head collar by leading her in hand. Does she backup, turn, halt etc etc on the lightest pressue. Until she understands that then I don't think you'll get her to tie up.

Once you've got the leading sorted I think there are a range of options. You could try elastic inserts so they've got nothing to pull against (not sure I'd like those as I think any intellegent horse would soon learn to be quite naughty!). Or using a long line run from the head collar through a ring on the wall to you. That way you can control the amount of give you give Dolly - quietly encourage her to stand still. And I'm a great believer in food!!!!! Help her want to stand still and that by standing nicely gets her the reward of some nosh. A slightly more sophisticated approach might be clicker training her. If you train her to touch her target then you can get her to touch her target and therefore learn that she needs to stand still.

Basically I think the key is going to be getting her leading spot on so she understands what is being asked of her when she is tied up.

Good luck

Olivia

[bevbob]

What is swinging??? never heard of it before???

[admin]

My understanding (which is fairly limited) is you tie them up to something very immovable (big tree, concrete post etc) with something unbreakable and let them get on with it.

THey pull and pull and pull until they learn that they can't get away. Then they give up.

In theory you end up with a horse that will tie up.

IMO you're likely to end up with a horse who won't tie up correctly (i.e. doesn't stand quietly and calmly on a loose rope, tied to thin piece of string which can break in an emergency).

Almost always they will badly injure their poll which can cause problems to years to come.

And it's quite possible that the horse will fall and potentially break it's neck.

However I am sure over the years millions of horses have been taught to tie in this way with no long term negative effects. BUT that could apply to "breaking" (literally) a horse and a plethora of other horse techniques from yesteryear. It doesn't mean we should continue to do them.

Rant over!

Olivia

[angie]

Thanks for your advice - I am a great believer in the softly and slowly approach. I will take it slowly and carefully - I am sure once I have gained her trust she will be fine

Thanks for the offer of help Jo

[cadeby]

I agree whole-heartedly with Olivia when she says please do not attempt to resolve this problem by "swinging". I have a 7 year old Dales mare with a terrible tie-up phobia that was caused by a so-called "professional" attempting to teach her to tie-up as an unhandled 3 year old by this manner.

My mare's phobia is now so great that she will never be safe to tie-up and leave unattended. However, she will stand all day in-hand, is easy and responsive to lead and stands totally still (untied) for grooming. She will also allow herself to be tied up in a trailer / lorry providing another horse has been loaded first and there is no room ro reverse!

We are able to cope with this problem because our mare is not required for riding and isn't shown. Obviously, most people require more "usage" from their pony, so it's really just a case of quiet persistence. I also think food is a good idea, with a long lead rope, or even a lunge line passed through the tie-up ring and lots of reassurance.

As for the hind feet - our mare also has serious issues with this too! Through lots of time and pateince my husband has got to the point where he can ( on most days ) pick out her back feet. Some days she will stand in-hand for the farrier and other days she loses the plot and has to be left untrimmed. We find she is generally more willing if we rest her hind foot on a low box - ie. sufficiently off the ground for the farrier to work on the hoof, but not too high as to panic the pony. It's a nuisance and can be scary at times, but your pony is considerably younger so I really believe that with gentle, calm handling on a daily basis, you'll get there!

Good Luck.
Helen.

[Deleted]

Just to say i dont swing mine. As i said i tie them up from been small with mum. I know alot of people who do swing them and who bit them the old fashioned way too so i was just saying that iv seen it work this way although i wouldnt choose to do that myself. I was just replying to what the farrier had said.
The more time and handling you can do with her angie the better.

[shirlnjazz]

I just cant see the benefits in letting them fight it out, my 1st pony was probably done like that, eithr that or had a fright while tied as i could never, ever tie her but she learned to stand with the leadrope just on the ground, to her this was her 'tied' and would stand like that. I was young so I used to take the reins over her head and leave them dangling too and she stood lol

I would just put the rope through the string on the ring but hold it and groom, fuss and feed her so she knows its good to stand, I would eventually tie it very loosly but still holding it so that if shje panicks you can still get her untied but you are still holding her, and practice what Olivia says about leading too.

[admin]

Sorry Claudy - I didn't mean to suggest that you did. I thought you were very clear that there were much better ways of teaching horses to tie than swinging!

[angie]

Thanks for your advice everyone - Dolly is letting me pick her front feet up which is excellent, but is reluctant with her back. She lets me pick them up and then moves away. Her foal has recently been weaned, do you think she is in pain or maybe thinks it might be painful to pick her back feet up? Her bag has gone down completely but might she still be abit touchy back there?

I have been continueing to loop the rope through and giving her come hay to munch and she seems happy to stand. I would like to show her though so as you all said I will just have to practice with her and see how she goes. I suppose with her being pretty much unhandled at least she has not had any bad experiences - she seems to want to learn and likes being fussed and groomed, thanks again Angie

[Deleted]

Olivia, i know you weren't suggesting i swung them but when i read it back i just thought i better clarify it!

[julie]

Get a long rope - put through tie ring and hold other end. If she moves back and pulls encourage forward and praise. Can take ages until she learns to stand but easy way as you can groom etc whilst holding her and teaching her.

[angie]

Thanks Southerner

[sammy]

That is exactly what I did with little Beau, had her on a long rope, throught a tie ring and brushed her. Every time she moved back I moved her forwards again and praised her. I haven't had a problem with her picking her feet up, I clicker trained her to do it. I did start off with a handkerchief tied on to a whip and touched and stroked her all over with it, until there were not any no go areas.
My older ones, 3 and 4 hadn't had feet touched before they came to me but would tie up. I just worked my way down their legs each day, moving my hand back up the leg if I got to the point that I felt she was going to move, until I could pick their feet up and then held up longer each time progressing to picking them out. Lots of praise each time I acheived something and I did reward with a scratch or a peice of carrott. If she is kicking out with the back legs, again you could use a long rope to pick them up until she gets used to them being handled and to keep yourself safe.