Lame again - please read

[jojoebony]

Long but please reply?

Ok, this is more of an ehtical question than anything else.
My 3 y 7 m TB gelding went lame 01/08/06, vet diagnosed sweeney shoulder (visually) to off fore and digital extensor flexor tendon injury to near hind. Xrays showed spavin in near hind also, but nerve block negative so not cause of pain.
Everything improved but then lameness in off fore got worse, vet nerve block which was positive but vet discounted this against my wishes as him being foot sore (never happened before and was lame before trim).
Boxrest prescribed and Shadow became crippled behind. Vet referred him to Edinburgh without seeing him. Edinburgh weren't concerned about hind leg lameness but nerve blocked and xrayed fore feet and diagnosed navicular changes. Sent home, to be shod all round and backed.
Everthing went well for about a 2 months then when work load increased he went lame all round. Vet recomended physio again (without seeing him) and physio found problems in off hind (the good one).
Anyway, they then suggested riding him on and seeing how he went (by this time sound again), so I booked him in to go to a professional. Vet has prescribed Danilon.
I have issues with putting him on the Danilon and riding him when I don't have a firm decision on what is wrong with his off hind. Rider been working lightly with him last 3 days and rang to say he is crippled.
The lameness is subtle on a large circle but on a 10 metre circle he is crippled. So this sounds like spavin, but his xrays were clear for that leg. She also thinks his lameness in his near fore is coming back but she thinks it's his shoulder.

A very long and confised post, I know but your advice would be greatly appreciated.

My questions are:
Would you put him on Danilon/bute and ride him through this (supposedly to strengthen him up)?
His off fore does not hit the floor flat (outside first), Edinburgh weren't concerned about this despite me saying how worried I was about it? Am I wrong for second guessing the professionals or would this concern you.

Jo

[Deleted]

Reading through it seems they haven't actually diagnosed the problem, i.e haven't said why she is lame. I would definitely want a diagnosis as to what is definitely causing the lameness before I continued on any work with her. After all a horse isn't lame for nothing, even is something minor, you know there is a reason.

[Debbie]

Jo I've pm'ed you

[greydales]

I would also be concerned about riding a horse that has been given something to mask the problem - if that problem had not been diagnosed. I've not heard of Danilon - is that a painkiller? The thing is they say to ride him through to strengthen him - yet can't say what is causing the lameness!

Perhaps he is not putting his foot flat on the floor due to discomfort elsewhere - but without a diagnosis this could be many things.

I am afraid I would want to know what the cause was before any attempts at riding.

[harveydales]

I really appreciate how worrying and confusing this situation is for you. It is always dificult when you don't know what the real problem is and it sounds like there still hasn't been a deffinate diagnosis. I do remember a while back you posting about Sweeney Shoulder but don't remember the details.

Gill - Danilon is an anti-inflammatory which is thought to be safer and sometimes more effective than Bute. Not used it myself.

I would say any sort of arthritic/boney problem or even soft tissue type problem is likely to cause more discomfort on tight circles than on big ones. I agree, I wouldn't want to Shaddow ridden like this on painkillers to try and work it through before you have a full diagnosis. There are situations where mild exersise while on anti-inflammatories is indeed a good idea (for humans and other animals). BUT I would want to know for certain exactly what is going on in the joints.

Can you have a word on the phone with Edinburgh? That would be my first step before attempting any ridden work. I would also listen to gut feelings of those who handle Shaddow regularly - if they feel there is a shoulder problem, then there could well be. It sounds like he is compensating for pain in one area whcih could well cause problems in other areas. Such a pity they can't talk to us!

I do feel for you and hope you can get to the bottom of it soon. Sending hugsxxxx

[harleydales]

I too would be demanding a firm diagnosis. He's a young horse and you need to know the way forward with him.
Go back to your vet and BE FIRM and insist they come out and see him again, and demand a referral.

Good luck

[jojoebony]

Thanks for your replies. I was starting to think I was being awkward by questioning the vets opinion.
I have rang a different practice and explained the situation. They have agreed to take a look at him the beginning of next week. The good thing about them is they have a fully equipped surgery locally so would make life a lot easier. I wasn't expecting it to be so easy but they were ok about it.
They have advised gentle exercise for the few days he's ok but keep it all easy and relaxed and for about 10 mins only. No turnout and no Danilon.
So it's back to square one £2k into my insurance limit but hopefully now we'll get some answers.
Jo

[khristyne]

I think I would try and get a diagnosis and turn him away for a year to to strenghten up Dr Green's way!!

TBs grow so quickly and sometimes they just need to catch up with themselves. 3yrs isnt very old after all. I wouldnt be working him myself if he is not comfortable. It isnt going to teach him that his work is enjoyable and after all,all being well he has a long career ahead of him as a riding horse.

I am not a vet or a physio so I wouldnt like you to think I am an expert, but if they cant find anything definate to treat why not let him have a go at healing himself?

You must be so worried and disapointed I think you need a big hug!

[jojoebony]

We had two reasons for starting him early, firstly to help with the spavin fusion and secondly because he gets bored very easily.
I've had 5 emergency call outs in the last 18 months because he gets in trouble in the field.
His favourite trick is waiting for the others to roll then jumping through their legs (he did this on one occasion when the other horse was standing up, he pulled his leg muscles and did the other horses back in). He also jumps the 12.2 pony. He could be in a padded cell and still get into trouble if he wanted.
The work just knocks the edge of him.
One major factor in wanting to get answers now though, is the insurance. As hard as it is to admit I just don't think I'd have anyway of funding the treatment/tests after the insurance runs out (I used my life savings to buy him), I have until April and £8000 left between the two conditions. Atleast now I'm in a position to get him the best treatment.
Biggest problem is the way things are at the moment both conditions need the exact opposite treament.
Jo

[nars]

Jo,
I think you are right to question the on going lameness and not to ride him through it. Has your vet done any MRIs yet or the thermo imaging /bone scans? Both might get to the heart of the problem rather than going with any more guess work.

[mickey]

I am personally happy working a horse on bute. But that is only if I know what is wrong with it, that it is benefitting the horse and that Im not making things worse. I did it with Mickey until we fully retired him- difference being I knew exactly what the problem was.
The negative nerve block could have been a nerve block not put in correctly..... I wouldnt discount the spavin on 1 neg block alone personally....
Its also difficult with a horse who is lame on more than one leg- you block, improve and it goes lamer on another. Or at least that's how it seemed with Mickey!
You may also find he is sore where there are no visible reasons solely because if the extra strain compensating puts on the leg.
Personally Id be going with another opinion and ask them to start again with diagnosing- also try and get original xrays to compare how the spavin has changed in 6 months.
Cuddles... I know how bloody hard having a lame horse is

[PonyGirl]

How is the horse doing? How are you doing?

[jojoebony]

Vet came back out yesterday and thought there was an improvement, he's had a week of lunging on a head collar.
The lameness worsens when he is asked to work correctly and his back is definitely sore.

Vet has suggested I take him home and just potter about with him, 10 mins lunging and a little ridden work for a month. If he gets much worse to stop immediately and he'll come back out or if he hasn't improved within a month they'll take him in for further investigation.

Vet doesn't think I need to get his back sorted, thinks that might come good with time. Saw a little lameness in off hind but nothing too worrying.

Also suggested trying natural balance shoes (I'm alittle sceptical after the trouble I had with EB in them).

So really no further forward, except that vet doesn't want to mask the pain.

I've missed him so glad to be taking him home and have the ok to turnout (3 weeks in so far) but really down about it as well.
Still no answers.

[harveydales]

It is frustrating when you have no definate diagnosis but it looks like the best thing is to follow this vet's advice and see how he goes. At least having some turnout will help loosen his other muscles. It's not suprising his back is twinging a bit and maybe he would appreciate some gentle massage.

I'm sure you will feel a lot better once you have him home again. I've got all fingers and hoofs crossed for him!