Heather Moffett Saddles

[Debbie]

;D The defense rests, but the rider may not if they've sustained injury to their hip socket, or otherwise have damage to their pelvis. These types of injuries often need the support and narrower twist that a fully treed saddle can afford

I tend to agree with Gill, not every saddle will fit every horse...nor rider. Its a very highly individual thing.

[nars]

I have used a subperpad in the past under the freeform saddle but the pad used to move about too much for my liking on the cob I was riding. The saddle was much better with a numnah I bought in the US.

I got rid of the fhoneix as I hated the bulky wide feeling of it and the lack of support in a schooling situation.

I love my WOW saddle and Nars prefers it to the Sue Carson dressage saddle we have (although I find that saddle extremelly comfy).

I also like my western saddle- a Continental.

I do wonder how the totally treeless type of saddle will stand up over time though.

[bellajack]

OK, I realise that I am going on a bit, but I think that it is important. I can't believe that I am the only one who, when looking for a saddle, googles that make to see what ordinary people who have them are saying about them. It didn't take much to put me off. It was the general lack of negativity about HM saddles that made me investigate further. Anyone doing a search on HM saddles may well end up reading this thread.

Debbie and Nars - I totally understand about rider comfort, although I still think horse comfort must come first. After all we are volunteers in this riding business, they are conscripts. But the point about the suberpanel is that you do get twist - it isn't like sitting on a flat pad. And, even in a treed saddle, providing the saddle really fits, a very wide horse is still going to ride like a very wide horse.

What I don't understand is how a saddle is supposed to support the rider - surely it is part of the rider's remit to support themselves. A treed saddle may help deaden the movement, but surely learning to absorb the movement is part of learning to ride, and, at the end of the day, we are not talking about sitting hugely elevated paces here, I wouldn't have thought. If you mean having a comfortable seat to sit on, the Fhoenix can't be beaten for me.

Susie P and Southerner - if treed saddles are so great, why do so many horses have back problems and muscle wastage, not to mention behavioural problems under saddle, even today, with modern technology and greater awareness of the importance of regular, correct fitting? Would treed saddles have stood the test of time if there had been any real alternatives? Why are so many people still looking for an alternative?

Having seen and heard so much about my ponies on here, do you really believe that they are anything less than 100% happy about the saddle they are ridden in? Do they look it? I also use mine on an old, fairly narrow pony, and the Clyesdale X I have mentioned before. They all go better in it than they ever have in any other saddle, and they have had a few, as they are both in their 20's.

[SuzieP]

OK - treed saddles are great IF THEY FIT RIGHT. Too many people don't get saddles properly fitted and don't check them regularly. A horse changes shape throughout the year and depending on what work it's doing - and that affects the fit of the saddle.

I'm very, very reluctant to accept that any one saddle is the answer to all our problems. The answer is to buy the saddle that suits the horse and rider best. Also, whilst the comfort of our horses is of paramount importance, HMveryHO the suitability of the saddle for the rider is of equal importance. Why? Because an uncomfortable rider (or one in pain) will not sit right, will not balance right, will not ride right - with the best will in the world.

The issue of a saddle being supportive is important. Yes, we should be self-supporting when riding - but what we sit on can also contribute. I'm sitting in my office on an ergonomically designed chair which supports me. My manager could say - sod that, Sue should be self-supporting - and sit me on any old thing. But it is recognised that what we sit on is as important as how we sit. Just because the SBS squidges down and moulds to one's bum doesn't mean that it is comfortable if its bulk is forcing abduction on hips that can't take it.

I do so wish I hadn't broken my hip and could ride without pain - but I can't and it's therefore important to me to have a saddle that is not only right for Bea, but doesn't contribute (more) to my discomfort. Or should I give up riding??

Very interesting thread this - I love a good debate?

[bellajack]

;D Me too!!! ;D

[nars]

I'm sorry Bellajack but I have to take you up on this one. A rider has to be comfortable on a saddle if they are to ride corectly and therefore not hinder a horses movement. I'm not talking about a saddle supporting a rider who looks like a sack of spuds, I'm taking about the saddle ensuring it does not hinder a riders position. For me, some treeless and non conventional ones can do that . I am not new to the treeless saddle issue having tried many of them, spent thousands on saddles over the years and I have a lot of experience of saddles and fitting. As anyone who knows me will testify, my horses always get top quality treatment and whatever they need, they get. I have searched the country sometimes finding saddles that suit horses as I have sometimes taken on remedial issues that have been ignored, and the horses have been brought back to full health and competition fitness as a result of the time and effort I have put in.

I can tell you that I was one of the first people to spot the downhill effect that some of the treeless saddles have had, and a couple of years later, all those people raving about them, suddenly found the same issues. This was because a horses confirmation has to be taken into account, treelss or otherwise. If you happen to have a completely level pony, good luck to you, but thousands don't and therefore the treeless saddles have not always been good for them. Equally, pressure from stirrups on some treeless has caused white hairs.

I don't find the Fhoenix saddle seat comfy at all. I think it's a huge, dense brick and limits the capacity to pt the leg on properly to perform dressage moves. hacking wise, its fine. I much prefer a narrower twist. I didn't find the suberpad created that for me and I was using mine long before they were promoted as good to use with HM saddles so I do feel I'm talking from experience.

I was taught very early on the key things to look for in saddle fitting and I have spent years studyingthe horse physique and horse massage and therapy is a particular interest of mine. My local sadler was one that heather wanted to help design treeless, as she is held in such high regard, so I have been aware of the saddle fitting issues for many years.

I am glad your ponies like your saddles, but that doesn't mean others will/do or that the riders would also appreciate them. We all have to find what suits us and the horses best and on this board, as on others, there are many peple with excellent horsemanship skills and knowledge, whichis why we all have different saddles, tack etc- we have found what suits our own horses.

There is nothing wrong with a well fitted treed saddle, western or english. I am friends with many competitors of both disciplines who have ridden in treed saddles for years and their horses are a credit to their horsemanship skills.

I am an admirer of Heather and the work she has done. I like the way she rides; I've been lucky enough to have a lesson off her. In fact she wanted to buy the Dales pony I had at the time as she love dthe way he went (in a treed saddle). For me, and the horses I have had, they don't like the saddle, for for others, great, if it works for them and it means a happy horse, then that's what it's all about.

[bellajack]

Nars, don't be sorry. All I am doing is defending a saddle I believe in, in a thread I started. I thik that is my duty. I am not saying there is no other point of view, or that I know more than anyone else does - I am just telling it the way I see it, and defending the saddle against some fairly vitriolic critisism - which is fine, we all have a right to express our points of view and I would defend the right of those opposing me wholeheartedly.

I seem to be fighting a lone corner here, so I am trying to do the best job I can. I will always stand up and shout if something I believe in is critisised, which is what the internet should be all about, surely.

I don't think that I have actually said that there is anything wrong with a well fitting, well made treed saddle, and if I have given that impression I apologise. What I would contest is how many there are in general use - both well made and well fitting, and how many people actually do have them checked by a saddler every 6 months, as is recommended.

I am actually in the process of buying an HM St. Merryn dressage saddle, which is treed, so I can't be that against them, although this is because of the knee flaps rather than the tree. But I am having it altered to fit by the manufacturer, and it's continued ability to fit properly will be constantly checked - something I don't have to worry about with my Fhoenix!

[SuzieP]

Hmmmm - I don't think the criticism in this thread could be described as vitriolic, bellajack. To the point and succinct, maybe - but there doesn't seem to be any vitriol there. LOL - some of the stuff I'm dealing with at work at the moment really is the pure acid....wish I could show you some of it - there's no comparison!!

I don't know Heather, but I think she'd agree that no one saddle suits all. People who have bought treeless at great expense, believing them to be the answer to all their problems (as, you have to admit, they have been hyped up to be - although not, I think, by Heather) and then experienced problems are bound to be disappointed. Especially if the problems have cause their ponies to suffer - let's face it, those who buy the treeless saddles do so because they believe them to be the best.

The treeless saddle offers one option to horse owners, Cair another, and so on...... All manufacturers big up their products - of course they do!! It's up to the individual horse owner to weigh up the benefits of each system, and apply them to the horse to see if they fit. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

Just for the record - I ride Bea in a GFS Pro Event with a prolite pad and half-sheepskin numnah. I tried other makes of saddle and some he was clearly not happy in. He is happy in his GFS - he has his back checked twice a year and I give him interim massage (but for no other reason than that we both enjoy it LOL)

Saddles are as personal to horses as shoes are to us....

[lucydales]

I'm pro HM saddles! They work for me and my horse and ponies.

I have a TB mare (my first horse) that started me looking at saddles. When she came she always tried to bite when her girth was being done up. She was previously ridden in a GFS saddle (LOL Suzie!) but it was too small for her. I then had an old fashioned endurance saddle which weighed a ton but it stopped her trying to bite. She wasn't perfect in this though. Next came an Ideal Grandree GP/Jumping saddle (I liked this one!), then a Free'n'Easy (which was good but very heavy), then a Randol (Torsion copy) - I'd found treeless! - which didn't have enough wither clearance, then a Freeform (which I'd bought for Amy my little Dales who had an ill fitting synthetic saddle when she came) which again didn't have sufficient wither clearance, then a suber pad, and finally a HM SBS.

I am now the proud owner of 4 HM saddles, and have recently swopped a dressage SBS for a Fheonix. I need to ride more in the Fheonix to decide if I prefer it to the SBS. I have recently sold my xxw treed Symmonds working hunter saddle (a beautiful saddle) that was Isaac's on the basis that I won't use it again, it was like sitting on a board compared to the SBS!

My SBS's are all showing signs of the prolite breaking down on the underside and will need that replacing at some point. I don't currently ride for more than about an hour at a time, so can't say what they'd be like for lots of use for either me or the ponies. They do tend to slip more than a conventional saddle on my fatties, but haven't tried them with the suber panel.

So from my point of view and experience, I rate HM's saddles. I do agree that any saddle whatever make should fit the horse and the rider, and if it can't do both, then the rider should find the compromise or not ride the horse. Folks with competition horses need to and often can afford to ensure their saddles fit the horses, it's the folks on low budgets that often have to make do and in this case treeless maybe the better option for the horses well being.

I think the biggest reason saddles are ill fitting is general ignorance (horses with wasted back muscles sadly used to be the norm and so are accepted as normal) and a lot of so-called experts who give advice to suit their business not their clients. The good thing is folks are becoming more knowledgable and are starting to question what they use and is it okay, in this way things will begin to change for the bettterment of horses (and by default their riders!).

IMHO!!!!

[The Moo]

I had a love hate relationship with an sbs.
I loved the idea of the treeless saddle with a gullet, no hard points, loved the comfort of the seat and the position of the stirrup bars.
But.... could not get to grips with other aspects of the saddle and it caused me more heartache and worry than a treed saddle so it had to go.
I loved the idea but just couldn't make it work for me.

ETA - or my horse who had far more issues with it than I did.

[ryebrook]

Me too Jo! Been there and didn't get on with them!

Have a wonderful Native pony saddle now that fits us both a treat!

Well said Susie

[Debbie]

Am I mistaken? I though the suberpanel was something that fitted between the saddlepad and saddle to help with saddle fit. I thought this was for the support of the horse's back??

[The Moo]

LOL I think what finally made me break down and weep (not really but I wanted to LOL) was the fact I stretched myself to get one thinking it would be the end to all my problems and in trying so hard to make it work I spent £100's more on pads, padding, nummahs etc and in the end I could have had a summer saddle and a winter saddle (and just about an autumn saddle as well).

A great concept but just not right for my horse at that time.

[The Moo]

Debbie, a suberpad is a cork filled pad that can go under any saddle.

A suberpanel saddle is one that doesn't have standard panels underneath, they have been replaced by specially made suberpads which become part of the saddle.

[Debbie]

Thanks for the clarification !!!

Hmmmm....but a pad/shimming for the horse and saddle would not correct the width problem that I was discussing for the rider with say arthritis in a hip joint, or a problem with the Sacro-Iliac joint. That's where I was saying a saddle with a narrow twist would help.