What size coller for a Dales??

[lucydales]

What size driving coller would fit a Dales pony?? I have a 13.3hh mare (Amy) and a 14hh gelding (Isaac) and the ones on ebay are going cheaply at the mo, but I don't know what size I might need!!

[The Moo]

Why not try a french collar or a brollar, they have some adjustment so one might fit both ponies.

[harleydales]

I use a breast collar, it has lots of adjustment in it.

[lucydales]

I'm currently using a breast harness, and have borrowed Mair's brollar to measure up to make one (sorry I've not returned it yet Mair, do you need it back yet? Pls shout at me if you do!) but have been stuck by the steel half hoop in it. That said I can measure it up as Mair & Rick thought it fitted on Amy and was a bit small for Isaac! Why didn't I think of that before?!

I was looking at collars if I could get a reasonable one dead cheap as they seem to be going cheaply on Ebay at the moment but are probably pony sized ones. I thought it'd be better for harrowing etc as I intend to make my fatties earn their keep in the summer!

Thanks for getting back to me anyway!

[Debbie]

How does the measuring go for the collars? You mentioned a steel half hoop....is it measured across the width of this? Or is it the length? How do you measure the pony??

LOL...of course you can all tell me to stuff it and find a driving book ;D

[harleydales]

I've never measured for a collar, but a lot of the driving books tell you how to measure properly.

[lucydales]

I was looking at internal measurements top to bottom and across the widest point side to side, but I don't know anything about collars!

[dollylanedales]

Lucy, did it say if the collars were English leather ....or are they foreign? Usually English go for a big price. I have never measured mine for a full collar - I would say Oliver is a lot bigger than Molly.

[lucydales]

They were advertised as english leather and looked quite old but good nick, but they were all pony ones not Dales size I think, they all went for around £50 each I think. Pls let me know if you need your brollar and I'll come visiting!
Thanks, Lx

[dollylanedales]

Ooh ....looking at your ponies, Lucy, I think you would need a bigger size than a pony. Usually, they are sold in inches (20-24" being popular sizes sold at the auctions I go to.) There are a couple of carriage sales coming up shortly, one in Cheshire and other in Lancs. Quite often collars come through there. May be worth a visit for you. Will let you know dates - March/April time.

You keep the broller until you have done what you wanted. Its Molly who wears that, and she is on maternity leave, so she says, but we are just wondering if she is having us on lol!!

[clara]

:) Hi I am a new member and I drive a registered dales called Castle Hill Lad or Sporty to his friends. I was very impressed to see you breaking your pony to drive in an open bridle. It is a rare sight. Well done you. Was she broken before and you retrained her or was she unbroken when you started? It seems as though you have some experienced people around you so maybe someone could help you with the collar issue. Collars are really tricky to fit and are usually designed for a specific pony. Peronally I would give one a wide berth and stick with breast collars. A wise man once said 'a well fitting breast collar is much better than a ill fitting full collar' and I'm sure most ponies will agree!! I presume the only reason you are looking at one is because of the extra weight/resistance in harrowing? However, you may find that the modern full collar is not really designed to pull a harrow. (I wanted to harrow with my ponies so I have been down this road.) What you really need is a small work collar (nearly impossible to find), you will find these have much larger bearing surface and so will make life very much more comfortable for your ponies. There is a man somewhere in the UK who is making modern work collars for ponies our size but I have never been able to track him down! I believe the Europeans' horses have never really used full collar harness and their work horses used to have a special extra wide, extra padded breast collar for heavy pulling. Also I would beware of asking a newly broken horse to pull some thing like that but it depends on your pony. Needless to say, with so many issues I have not got round to harrowing with my ponies. If you find a way round all this let me know as I would love to give it a try. Also what kind of harrow are you planning to use? There is no doubt about it ponies love having a job to do. I am thinking of giving mine a delivery round as this avoids the whole collar issue!!
P.S My pony takes a 21' collar but depending on his level of fitness it can run from a touch tight to a touch loose. I also think that it is quite a wide fit?!

[lucydales]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me Clara! Welcome to the board!

Amy is 13 and a riding pony and I wanted to drive her, my logic is that she's used to going out in a normal bridle so why do I need to use blinkers? I just needed her to get used to the cart behind her! She can still see me if I'm not in her blind spot (or she turns her head) which will give her more confidence. I think blinkers are used to speed up the process for young horses who haven't been habituated to their working environment too well, It must be very scarey for them as they loose most of their control over their situation, having to totally trust their driver. That said, with a very reactive horse they may be useful! I'm rather unconventional and try to think things trough for myself! Claire who teaches me is an experienced driver but the rest of us are beginners!

Your info on collars is invaluable so thanks also for that. I think maybe the brollar route will be best as they are adjustable and we do have weight swings! LOL! Harrowing is probably a longer term project! Not found a suitable harrow yet either!

You're not local to Derbyshire are you??!

Hope you enjoy the board!

Lucy

[Debbie]

Indeed, thank you very much for the info Clara, and welcome to Dalesfans

I'm located in the US, and as luck would have it, I'm back in Amish country, so if I need, I'm sure I could find a farmer round here to help me get started with in harness training, and more importantly, teach me what I'm supposed to be doing ;D

I find it very interesting about the full collars. I'm sure with the harness makers before it was much easier to get a collar made to order for just that particular horse or pony. But with the change to machinery, most of the harness makers went the wayside.

I did wonder if the different collars evolved from the different soils the horses were used on? I'm sure clay is much harder and heavier to pull than loam, or the sandy soils. Perhaps this was what dictated what type of collar evolved?

With a breast collar...what's to keep it from choking a pony if the going gets heavy?

[clara]

Many thanks for the warm welcome. Well done you for thinking it through. If I ever decide to break a pony I would love to give it a go. I think it is a good example of the dales' excellent nature that she took to it so well especially so late in life! It is certainly the safest way to drive. Let me know how you get on with the brollar as I have never tried one. Can you use it with fixed traces or only a swingle tree. Interestingly I heard this weekend that blinkers were introduced realtively recently historically, when people got serious about driving pairs, teams and tandems. Blinkers enabled the driver to touch individuals that he was driving with the whip and not have the whole team react!! I never knew this but it makes sense. Although when I put Sporty in a pair he was so sensitive to my aids he would hear the whip and react to that instead. That said I am told they definately make breaking faster and probably less heart stopping! I am based in Suffolk. You have some great drivers in your area.
Debbie, did you import your mare from the Uk or is she US bred? Is there much of a following over there. I was talking to a breeder who had exported to the US. I'm sure it would be fascinating to talk to the Amish about their horses as they really use them for everything. I bet they still make work collars. What a great heritage to be able to tap into. You should try driving I really love it and it is more social than riding. I think the Amish may drive two handed and over here we tend to drive 'coachman style' one handed especially in the show ring. Do you know what they use for show driving over there?
I don't know why the Europeans came up with a different collar to us English (except perhaps sheer bloody mindedness in the case of the French!!!) but they amount to two ways of dealing with the same problem which is allowing the the shoulder to work freely whilst still bearing a load. Regards choking Both the breast and full collars need to be fitted correctly as they can both affect the windpipe if they are too high/ too tight. That said the line of draft i.e the angle at which the traces are attached to the vehicle is most of the time sloping downwards or in some older vehicles like rally carts it can be horisontal in order to avoid just this issue. Anyway, I have prattled on too long.

[Debbie]

Thanks for the extra info regarding the driving and collars, Clara Its been fascinating reading.

My girlie, Kilmannan Blossom is only a year and a half old (so still a baby), but yes, I did import her from the UK last year. I did try to purchase a colt born and bred in Oregon, USA, but by the time I'd gotten a home with land, he'd all ready been sold. Fate stepped in and I got Blossom instead. She's been a huge character, and we've got a lot of learning to do together, especially before we make a leap into anything so scary as driving.

As far as the Amish driving, I've never really paid much attention as we pass their carriages to what the drivers are doing. I'm far more concerned about keeping a close eye on how the horse is reacting as we pass. Most of their horses are retired Standardbreds that have been retrained from the track. All in all, its a win win situation, as they need good driving horses, and the Standardbreds need homes where they can get daily exercise....and boy can they eat up the miles! I do know they still make the harness, as we've seen several sets come up for sale at the horse auctions.

As for the showing, I'm not really sure. I think there are set rules about what's needed, but never really paid attention to the draft horses as they go in. I do know there's a difference between the actual hauling classes versus the show classes. Between you, me, and the fencepost, I think some of those guys that drop the hitch to the load are NUTS!!! We watched briefly a class where they were doing the hauling with the skids. I think it was the Belgians class, and the driver came up with his team, barely able to hold them they were so rarin' to go. And another man had the chain that attached to their harness. He was the one who had to drop the chain onto the skid, and get it secure enough. Once it was in place, the team would pop up and out to pull the skid the necessary distance. My word...watching one or two sets of the chain being dropped was enough for me. I figured it was a matter of time before someone's hand would get caught doing that ~ and I didn't want to be around to see it

It is interesting to hear about the different styles and uses of the harnesses. I'm so glad you've found us