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Post by harveydales on Aug 13, 2011 5:43:53 GMT -1
Can't believe this - had the vet to dolly on Wednesday for gas colic and last night to Harvey for lameness issues.  This is the first time in the 10 years I've had him that he has gone lame. As you may know, Harvey had a night of fun and games on Tuesday/Wednesday when we turned Dolly out with him, she came into season and he was mounting her. We separated them the next day - Dolly had mild colic and Harvey seemed fine. I hacked him out Thursday and he was 100% - I am gently bringing back into work after time off for his back to heal from Winnie's nibble. Yesterday we took him over to Tanya's where he had a gentle lunging session in the school - I don't want to hammer his joints lunging on hard ground. Again he was fine and moving very nice and freely. We loaded him in the trailer and drove home. He travelled well, as he always does and I drove slowly, as I always do. When he came off the trailer he was desperately lame. We checked him all over, trotted him up etc. It was not easy to detirming exactly where he was lame but it seemed to come from behind, he was very reluctant to move and was holding himself strangely. My thoughts were laminitis (but no true lami symptoms), azotoria (something I've never experienced before) or some sort of hind leg/back injury, possibly caused by the mounting episode. He was so uncomfortable that I got the vet out who gave him a very thorough check. She ruled out laminitis. She couldn't totally rule out azoturia without taking a blood sample but he wasn't displaying the usual symptoms. She also tracked the problem down to the back end, mainly his left hind but both stiff. Harvey is such a quiet, stoical chap that it is very hard to pinpoint painful areas. His back itself seemed fine. So the vet gave him an intravenous Bute injections and left me wtih some bute sachets. he is stabled and I have to report in this morning. Please send some healing vibes and any of you with stallion experience, what sort of hind leg injuries could a stallion sustain while mounting? |
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Post by sunny on Aug 13, 2011 6:30:26 GMT -1
Sending Harvey some "hurry up and mend" vibes and lots of love to you Pam.... speak later x
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Post by jap on Aug 13, 2011 6:37:47 GMT -1
has he pulled his lower back ,pam. if he mounted her and landed on her back he would have stretched muscles not usually used.
silly old fool, lol.
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Post by jaycee on Aug 13, 2011 6:53:48 GMT -1
If Harvey injured himself while mounting Dolly wouldn't it have shown up before yesterday? Hope he makes a speedy recovery, he seems to have had more than his share of troubles lately. |
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Post by leannwithconnie on Aug 13, 2011 7:04:55 GMT -1
Poor Harvey and poor you  Do you think he has somehow stood on himself while traveling in the trailer?..Really hope you can get tot he bottom of the cause and he is sound again very quickly These horses know how to worry us sick don't they? |
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Post by harveydales on Aug 13, 2011 8:01:47 GMT -1
has he pulled his lower back ,pam. if he mounted her and landed on her back he would have stretched muscles not usually used. silly old fool, lol. I feel sure it's got to be realted to the mounting episode and maybe he re-tweaked something in the trailer. He is quite a bit better this morning but then he is still on bute. His rear end muscles feel tense and yesterday he was very reluctant to allow the vet to manipulate his back legs. I am keeping him in and will give him some gentle massage. |
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Post by cadeby on Aug 13, 2011 11:43:30 GMT -1
The commonest sites of injury for a breeding stallion tend to be the hocks (with possible transferred pain/stiffness to the hips/back) or the sacro-iliac joint itself. However, it doesn't sound as if Harvey is showing clear signs of trauma to either of those regions, and you'd be unlucky if one or two nights of futile passion with Dolly had caused such an injury. Hopefully it's just a muscle strain and the daft lad will get well soon If it happens again Pam, I would definitely have the test for Azoturia. Our working Shire gelding William who was fit and seemingly healthy started to display non-specific hindquarter stiffness after mild exercise when he was 19, without the classic dark urine being present, but it was Azoturia and he went on to develop EPSM. I don't think that is Harvey's problem, but better to rule it out if his symptoms reoccur  |
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Post by harveydales on Aug 13, 2011 14:14:59 GMT -1
The commonest sites of injury for a breeding stallion tend to be the hocks (with possible transferred pain/stiffness to the hips/back) or the sacro-iliac joint itself. However, it doesn't sound as if Harvey is showing clear signs of trauma to either of those regions, and you'd be unlucky if one or two nights of futile passion with Dolly had caused such an injury. Hopefully it's just a muscle strain and the daft lad will get well soon If it happens again Pam, I would definitely have the test for Azoturia. Our working Shire gelding William who was fit and seemingly healthy started to display non-specific hindquarter stiffness after mild exercise when he was 19, without the classic dark urine being present, but it was Azoturia and he went on to develop EPSM. I don't think that is Harvey's problem, but better to rule it out if his symptoms reoccur Thanks Helen, that's very helpful. He is still stiff and moving awkwardly but not quite as bad as yesterday. I spent the afternoon with him. I took a book and chair into his stable (it is huge) and sat with him, reading interspersed with massage sessions. We both enjoyed it. |
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Post by cutemangurdi1 on Aug 13, 2011 15:55:34 GMT -1
Lots of for you both. What a worry. Could it be his hamstrings Pam? I have seen a mild case of tying up and there was no dark urine but a lot of soreness/stiffness. It came on quick in a very fit horse. The only other thing i could think of was last year Sigs had an episode like this during lunging. He did look a bit colicky though and was sweating. Bloods showed it was an insulin related issue. I hope he recovers quickly |
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Post by valerie n scout on Aug 13, 2011 17:34:32 GMT -1
Oh poor Harvey lots and lots of "get well soon" vibes comming from here xxx
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Post by Debbie on Aug 14, 2011 6:56:56 GMT -1
My goodness Harvey's going through the mill this year  Its probably down to his mounting episodes with Dolly. Especially if he's the stoic sort, the soreness and muscle spasming wouldn't have shown up until at least day 2 (when some of the 'excitement' had worn off  ). Its a bit like us humans, we get into our 40s or 50s and attempt some of the more vigorous activities that we don't normally do in our day to day life and then like the next day or the day after  the onset can seem to come out of nowhere. Massage will be a big help, although if it is an azotoria episode, no amount of massaging in the world will help and in fact would only make it worse. Is he throwing heat in any one area, say the sacro-iliac region, or the hamstrings or his hocks? Icing or a cold hosing can help to reduce pain and swelling in those areas. I'm another who'd suggest testing him just to rule out the azotoria/EPSM. If they can do a test without him having an episode that is?? I don't know because I've never been faced with that problem. I'm only thinking, if the extra grass wasn't something Harvs normally gets, it could have been a triggering episode for azotoria. If that's the case, the sooner you can address his diet, the better. |
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Post by merlinalison on Aug 14, 2011 7:28:54 GMT -1
So sorry to hear this Pam. If it continues, ask your vet to refer you to a chartered physio. When Merlin was pratting around in a field with a mare a few years back he went very dramatically lame and sore. The vet couldn't identify a problem and thought it might be just arthritis and time to retire him. When the physio came to give me a second opinion she diagnosed a hamstring strain and demonstrated by touching him with one finger in the middle of his hamstring which prompted a huge reaction. His were so badly in spasm that he had to go to her place for 4 weeks so that she could work on him every day, but he came back as good as new (actually better than new...). And the insurance company paid for 3/4s of it.
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Post by harveydales on Aug 14, 2011 8:14:47 GMT -1
Thanks Debbie and Alison. Lots more for me to consider!
I am pretty sure it is connected with the mounting episode and his age. I was thinking yesterday a good physio would be a good step. I will look into getting one over. I will be contacting the vet to report in on Mnday. He is slightly better today and one hind is more flexible again but the other hind still quite stiff.
Yesterday, while I was watching him, he did a strange thing. He suddenly looked a bit agitated and then raised and fully flexed his stiff hind, so that it was right up against his belly. There was a chrunching sound and then he put his leg down, shook a bit and seemed happier.
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Post by harleydales on Aug 14, 2011 8:17:48 GMT -1
2 thoughts from me -
Apollo spent a summer mounting Lady when she first arrived, and afterwards he would be VERY stiff and sore for a couple of days. Apollo is older than Harvey, and already had joint issues, and every time he does too much he gets very stiff.
When Harley has an EPSM episode (as Helen was mentioning with her shire) his muscles go quite hard and he 'parks out' as though he's wanting to pee - maybe not so stretched as when he's peeing but the hinds are definitely further out the back than usual. He also has muscle tremors.
If it was a borderline azutoria it should show up iin liver function tests - his liver enzyes would be raised. His pee would also be darker than normal.
I massage Harley - across the muscles behind the saddle, round and round then down over his haunches - he loves it and stands for ages when he is sore - if he doesn't stand I know he's OK.
Both EPSM and azutoria can be managed with diet, and grass can certainly trigger an EPSM episode. I knew nothing about this syndrome until Harley was diagnosed with it last year, so have been doing a fair bit of research. His is mild and I manage it through diet and exercise. He's never tied up properly, but the vet reckons his episodes were a precursor and it was only a matter of time before hw would have done had we not investigated things further.
I think it's more likley that he tweaked himself with his 'unusual' activity, but you could get his liver tested just to be sure his enzymes are all fine.
If you want more EPSM info, please let me know. Hopefully Harvey will be right as rain in a few days xx
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Post by harveydales on Aug 14, 2011 10:27:34 GMT -1
Mmm Harvey is def not "parking" out. In fact, when he was at his worst he was holding himself sort of hunched up. His pee looks perfectly normal. It really does sound like ths is all caused by his mounting activities and his age.
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This is the first time in the 10 years I've had him that he has gone lame.
). 
the onset can seem to come out of nowhere. 
