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Post by harleydales on Sept 27, 2010 12:51:09 GMT -1
No, his muscles stay soft and supple at all times.
He always has a fleece on after a ride and then is out with a rug on if required - I confirmed with the vet this morning that although he was shaky he wasn't cold and rugging wouldn't help and could possibly overheat him and cause different problems!
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Post by harry11 on Sept 28, 2010 8:27:04 GMT -1
Just a thought - what about a cooler rug as a apposed to a fleece.
Another idea is to feed electolytes in feed.
Also look at vit an mineral intake in any diet he is on as to what it contains as a lot of feed can be lacking in certain things.
Just a thought.
I did not realise harley was poorly and even tho i do not know you i do feel sorry.
Please accept my thoughts in this touch time.
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Post by harleydales on Sept 28, 2010 14:35:42 GMT -1
I tried a cooler instead of a fleece last weekend - just the same result! He has a choice of electroplytes or plain water - I learnt the hard way with a different horse never to put electrolytes in feed or only offer electrolyte water, it can mess them up really badly. He only ever takes electrolytes after he's been doing over 30 mile rides at big speeds. He has a rockie block in the field and gets Feedmark Benevit Advance in a handful of pasture mix to keep the vits/mins up. He's not copper or iron deficient, and usually deficiencies would show as lethargy, weight gain/loss, poor coat condition etc and he looks and seems very healthy apart from this. me and the vet stood for about half an hour trying to think of other things that could be causing it, but the only thing we can come up with is a metabolic problem - which could well be an electrolyte imbalance for whatever reason, the problem is finding out exactly what is going on and then how to fix it. It could be something that he can't absorb - so no matter how much of it I feed him, he still won't be able to use it - or it might be something that he's not able to utilise/mobilise, or it could be that he's 'run out' of something and isn't replenishing it. Thanks for your thoughts  |
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Post by maggie on Sept 28, 2010 15:23:35 GMT -1
 for you and Harley, hope the bloods come back with something you can do for him.
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Post by carolinec on Sept 29, 2010 10:50:04 GMT -1
I really hope you can get to the bottom of the problem |
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Post by zeldalithgow on Sept 29, 2010 11:25:12 GMT -1
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Post by Debbie on Sept 30, 2010 22:35:56 GMT -1
 almost sounds like hypoglycemia. I was curious about any potential knots in the muscles along the neck (they'll feel like pebbles or rocks), because I remember when he came to you, he had liver inflammation (I think??) The knotted muscles may have pointed to a flare up again, but it doesn't sound like it whatsoever. I dearly hope your vet will be able to do the sleuthing and get to the bottom of this for you! Metabolic and mineral/vitamin balances can be exceptionally tricky
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Post by cutemangurdi1 on Oct 1, 2010 13:12:52 GMT -1
Jane, EPSM is seen in breeds such as QH, not just draft horses, so its a possibility as some of the symptons sound similar. Has your vet done a full calculation for insulin levels in case Harley has developed insulin intolerance? I ask, because Sigs had lost of similar symptons and the 2 episodes of azoturia were found to be because he is insulin intolerent. My first vet was dismissive because she couldn't see the problem immediately, but the new vet I found (a knowledgable Belgium vet). had encountered these werid symptons before and it didn't take long before he thought he had got to the heart of the problem and the bloods and subsequent calculations confirmed it. Luckily, we didn't feed hard feed anyway so the diet change wasn't too bad, but hay has to be soaked for 2 hrs to get rid of all the sugar and he isn't allowed hayledge now. I hope you get to the heart of the problem soon |
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Post by harleydales on Oct 2, 2010 19:09:21 GMT -1
Well his second lot of bloods have come back - normal.
Sugar/glucose levels fine.
Insulin levels fine.
Electrolyte levels normal.
All other aspects fine.
So we're a bit stuck!
The vet recommends not riding Harley much more than about 6 miles at a time, and we've decided that on Monday I'll take him on a normal 6 mile hack at home and see if he shakes after that. Meanwhile the vet is going to phone some other vets and colleges and see if he can get any more ideas.
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Post by valerie n scout on Oct 2, 2010 19:22:10 GMT -1
you sound like your at the end of your tether Jane xx I hope the vet can come up with something x
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Post by harveydales on Oct 3, 2010 5:59:15 GMT -1
How frustrating! I do hope you find the answer soon.
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Post by cutemangurdi1 on Oct 3, 2010 7:07:20 GMT -1
Jane, my new vet told me it isn't possible just from blood levels to know if a horse has become glucose intolerant. According to him it requires a calculation using various levels. Has your vet done that too? This was new to me to be honest. I read some interesting articles on www.thunderbrook.co.uk . Their nutrionalist, Dr. Deborah Carley is very much into metabolic disorders and they have information that might be of us to you if your vet thinks it is a metabolic disorder. Maybe some of what she talks about will ring a bell with what you have seen in Harley? Fingers crossed you get an answer soon though. |
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Post by harleydales on Oct 4, 2010 15:03:28 GMT -1
Jacqui - did this kick in suddenly out of the blue with Sigs? Harley has never done it bfore and he's been competing at this and much higher levels since he was 6.
I know Harls didn't have the best of starts - he was abruptly weaned and in poor condition and full of worms when his 'rescuers' got hold of him, and there is a sneaky suspicion he was on poor pasture, and probably infested with ragwort. I'm wondering if this has had a detrimental effect and up til now youth has been on his side - though he is NOT old at 13, perhaps he's starting to show the signs of this bad start?
Today I did a 6 mile hack with him - and if you didn't know anything was wrong you would be thrilled with him - full of joy, real quality Dales flying trot, no tension, no agitation, just sheer bliss and fun.
I made him work though, trotted up some hills and did some collected work, so it'll be interesting to see if he gets the shakes later tonight and/or tomorrow morning.
Other suggestions have been something to do with his endocrine system, a potassium problem, calcuim problems.....all will be discussed with the vet.
An odd twist though - the first time Harley went shaky it was after a distance ride. Well, in May there was another ride at the same venue - and a week after that a 160km/day fit horse tied up and has had metabolic problems since. His symptoms aren't quite the same as Harley's but.......coincidence? Harley's shakes came on 5 hours after leaving the venue.
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Post by Debbie on Oct 6, 2010 17:56:48 GMT -1
That sounds like too much to be a coincidence to me Jane. Possibilities: virus/bacteria/fungus at the venue Heavy metals poisoning is another possible culprit And from left field, but also a potential is parasites. Sometimes they will pick intermediate hosts and although not the intended host, horses/ponies can pick them up in the larval state which then can migrate into the spinal column/brain fluids causing nerve symptoms to pop up. We see this one in the US with EPM  I think the end host was supposed to be something like a possum or something, but horses/ponies can drink the water they hatched in and become infected too. I think this will take a bit of sleuthing to get to the bottom of it, and I would not throw out any theory until you've looked at it from every angle. |
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Post by katiekynoch on Oct 6, 2010 20:40:00 GMT -1
What a baffling mystery Jane. Apologies if this has been mentioned before (I checked and didn't see it mentioned in the thread so far) but this sounds like a variant of 'thumps', however you and your vet have probably considered and ruled that out already? The following description from an equine first aid book mentions some of the symptoms Harley is exhibiting (but I suspect thumps is a more immediate condition after competition/hard work whereas Harley's symptoms become apparent a while after exercise) : ".... The signs are a llittle like severe hiccups; the horse will breathe rapidly, with thumping sounds from the chest. At the same time the horse may sweat and appear uncomfortable, with muscle twitching and a stilted, wobbly walk. In itself 'thumps' is not harmful, but it is extremely disconcerting and is an indicator that there is a metabolic mix-up which should be sorted out. Thumps is caused by an electrolyte disturbance . . . ."www.horsehero.com/10427/24687 has an interesting blog too. Apologies again if I'm going over old ground and every best wish for a positive outcome for Harley. |
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I think the end host was supposed to be something like a possum or something, but horses/ponies can drink the water they hatched in and become infected too. 