|
|
Post by harleydales on Oct 11, 2010 7:38:22 GMT -1
He eats before and after the ride though, that's what I don't understand. He can be a git for not eating at the end of rides, but to be honest a horse of his fitness shouldn't really get that much depletion after only 10 miles.
The second time he shook he ate very well immediately agfter the ride, and the 3rd time as well.
This weekend he didn't get sugar beet, just 1/2 a pound of pasture mix after the ride, again at 7pm and again in the morning. No shakes. And previously he's had the sugar beet in a mix of before, during and after the shaking started so I can't see a connection there - plus he's eaten sugar beet every winter all his life.
All very random!!
|
|
|
|
Post by olivia on Oct 11, 2010 10:40:27 GMT -1
The randomness much be so frustrating for you Jane  It can make pinning down the cause so difficult. I'm obviously pleased Harley was more like himself this weekend - but I understand that it's not makingthe job of diagnosing him any easier I hope you get to the bottom of it all soon. Olivia |
|
|
|
Post by Debbie on Oct 12, 2010 16:23:52 GMT -1
I'm thinking its this window that's causing the shakes during the timeframe you're looking at. Its the timing of it not eating right after the ride that can cause the depletion. Eldon's worst shakes happened during a time when he was extremely fit and had like no body fat to speak of. His high level of fitness actually emphasized the hypoglycemia. Just keep a note of what rides he does the shakes after and whether or not Harley ate right after that ride. I'm thinking if you can coax him to eat the mix right after the ride (maybe make it tempting with apples or ?? whatever his little happy tidbit might be), it might stop the shakes altogether for you.  ** edited to add, with Eldon it was key to get the protein plus the available sugars in him pronto when the shakes were happening. I don't know what that would translate to with ponies for a higher protein level?? If only sugar is taken, the shakes abate for a little while, but then the blood sugar levels crash even harder after 20 minutes or so making the situation worse, which is why the protein plus sugar was key. In Eldon's case, he packed around a candy bar. LOL, do they make pony candy bars? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by cutemangurdi1 on Oct 13, 2010 7:20:26 GMT -1
Yes, Debbie. They do make candy bars for horses  Sigs isn't ever going to get one though unless he starts doing the sort of work Harley does. Otherwise he would be back to slimming world ;D |
|
|
|
Post by harleydales on Oct 13, 2010 7:31:32 GMT -1
The first ride he didn't eat and shook.
The second ride he DID eat straight away and shook.
The third ride he DID eat straight away and shook.
He always eats well later on after the ride and the next day.
He's always been picky about eating, even when he was doing 20, 30 and 40 mile trots but has never done the shaking before.
Add to that - this weekend he didn't get sugar beet and didn't get much to eat after a 10 mile relatively fast ride - and didn't shake. THAT is what is strange, it is not consistant.
|
|
|
|
Post by Debbie on Oct 13, 2010 12:31:46 GMT -1
Hmmm, no sugar beet and no shaking, that could point back to a possible glucose intolerance then. That can come on gradually over time, making him more and more sensitive to the sugars in the beetpulp.
Maybe try the rides and offer only what you did last time to see if he shakes again? It will probably be a matter of trial and error to get to the bottom of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by harleydales on Oct 14, 2010 19:04:19 GMT -1
Well, we've got a result - or at least a very positive line to take. Cadeby (Helen) was right - EPSM or Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy. Basically the horse can't use starch and carbohydrate from grains and so stores them in the muscles, which then causes problems after exercise or exertion/stress. As Helen said, worse case scenario is complete muscle wastage and eventually having to destroy the horse, but we are far, far from that. Generally with management of feed and exercise the horse can go on to get on with a normal life. The vet can't say for sure at this stage if it is full blown EPSM or just 'something along those lines' with a glycogen storage problem, but the basic theory is the same. There are heaps of symptoms, many of which Harley hasn't presented which was why I moved away from it, but thank you Helen - I did text it to the vet after you mentioned it and it seems he has looked into it. Thanks to everyone else for all suggestions and support - we were all going down the sugar line and weren't far off really! SO from here we will probably do a muscle biopsy which will confirm if it is EPSM or something like that. We can do that whenever, he doesn't have to be shaking when we take it. He's going to get in touch with the lab to see how they want it presented (apparently it has to be done a certain way) and we'll go from there. I have to look at his diet - and remove as much of the grain as possible, and go for a diet where he gets his carbs from fat. Sadly also I have to cut the sugar beet out - which was a good way to get him to drink after an endurance ride  . I'm going to check out if un-molassed sugar beet would be OK, as I would imagine it is the molasses that is the problem, though the sugar in sugar beet will be a starchy carb... At least we've got something to go on now, and I can work on sorting the diet out (including what on earth to feed him through the winter, sugar beet was the mainstay of that!). There is a thought that it is genetic, but no-one seems to be sure what brings it on all of a sudden. It CAN also just sort itself out, so coupled with the new diet we'll hang on to that idea! I don't know how it will affect his endurance career, I'm not sure we'll get back up to the big miles again but we'll just have to wait and see. At least it's the end of the season, so hopefully by next spring the new diet will be kicking in and helping him along.  what to think really. |
|
|
|
Post by harveydales on Oct 14, 2010 19:18:01 GMT -1
You must be soooo relieved to finally have an answer. I've read quite a bit about EPSM and the diets that help (from when I was researching into Quest's condition) but not taken it all in as I didn't have any need to. At least it seems there is a lot of research and a lot of information on how best to feed EPSM horses. At least you now know what you are dealing with and can adjust Harley's diet accordingly.  |
|
|
|
Post by jap on Oct 14, 2010 19:18:15 GMT -1
you need to look at simple systems feeds.
well done on the diagnosis, at least it gives you something to work on.
|
|
|
|
Post by zeldalithgow on Oct 14, 2010 19:26:43 GMT -1
Thank-goodness you've got a diagnoses Jane
|
|
|
|
Post by valerie n scout on Oct 14, 2010 20:15:59 GMT -1
am so pleased youve got some answers Jane Poor Harley x hopefuly you can now control and treat him xxx HUGE gugs x
|
|
|
|
Post by cutemangurdi1 on Oct 14, 2010 20:26:28 GMT -1
Glad you finally got a result Jane  . EPSM is a condition that can be well managed. There is lots of American research on this subject within the Quarter Horse world. I'll try and gather all the stuff I have on it and send you some links. I did wonder when I saw your last post saying he had grain as starch is notorious for causing these symptons. I had some tests done for this on one of my QHs and grain was a major culprit in causing huge swings. Unmolassed sugarbeet still has an element of molasses in- its below 5% and thats why it isn't published. Once you have a suitable diet you should stil be able to compete Harley  . |
|
|
|
Post by harveydales on Oct 15, 2010 5:12:06 GMT -1
I vaguely remeber reading an article recently about a lady whose horse also suffers with EPSM and competes at quite a high level at endurance. The feed rations were discussed but I can't remember anything so not a lot of use. |
|
|
|
Post by harleydales on Oct 15, 2010 7:22:05 GMT -1
I'm going to do some more research and see where we go from here.
Simplesystems - major problem with suppliers so getting it here would costa small forturne! I think the nearest supplier is Aberdeen, which is 2.5 hours away!
I'm going to phone Dodson and Horrell today, they've always been very helpful and may have something in their feed range that will be OK.
As far as the oil goes, I'm going for Tesco soya oil at 98p per litre. Exactly the same stuff as the Dodsdon stuff at quarter of the price.
Re weight in winter - well it will be interesting to see what his weight and muscles do, if atroophy is a part of it. I use grass nuts as well which are great for weight maintenance, and can still use those. Can't use the free malt pellets though that we get courtesy of Mike's work!
The other slight pest is he will have to be seperated from whoever he's grazing with for feeding or he'll get their grains. But we can deal with that by putting up a small electric fence pen.
Himself is bouncing round the field with Elle this morning completely unaware of the stress he's causing!
|
|
|
|
Post by zeldalithgow on Oct 15, 2010 7:44:53 GMT -1
|
|
It can make pinning down the cause so difficult.
. I'm going to check out if un-molassed sugar beet would be OK, as I would imagine it is the molasses that is the problem, though the sugar in sugar beet will be a starchy carb...
