Harley Possible Metabolic Problems - **RESULT**

[harveydales]

Mmmm interesting about that venue. Does sound like a lot more sleuthing required.

[harleydales]

There's no change in his heart raet or strength, it sits solid and steady at 44 to 48 which is normal for him. No rapid breathing, no wobbly walk, not tense at all.

Thanks for the thought though - I'll mention it to the vet when I speak to him.

Debbie - there is no evidence of infection, past or present, in any of the bloods so that's ruled out bacterial or viral problems.
I thought about parasites but wouldn't that result in lethargy? He's absolutely NOT lethargic!

[Debbie]

I didn't clarify with my parasites, and it maybe entirely different since the UK's an island, but we've got a few protazoa that cause the nerological problems in the US.

Basically what happens is the larvae from the offender gets in the pony's drinking water in the field and instead of the larvae going to the possum, the pony gets it instead. It ends up migrating to the spinal column and brain tissues and can kill the pony, but there are a lot of other odd neurological symptoms that can show up instead. Its incredibly frustrating and these are in horses and ponies that are regularly dewormed so the owner doesn't think of a protazoa.

There's a short blippit www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/epm-162.shtml

I know it can't be EPM in your case, but the protazoa that causes the problem with EPM is only one protazoa. There are others and it can be a fluke that it gets to the pony to begin with which is why vets can miss it on their first look round. It mimics so many other problems in the meantime.

I'm not saying it is this, I'm simply saying at this point its better to broaden the base and wonder if it might be this that or the other. Better to have a load of things it 'could' be and try to see if there's a match in there. I dearly hope you and the vet can get to the bottom of it quickly, though. I mean, it can be all sorts of things including something to do with metabolic upset and mineral imbalances

[cutemangurdi1]

I've never heard of thumps. How interesting. Thanks for posting that one.

Jane, yes it came on Sigs very suddenly and we were shocked. He was reasonably fit (not to the extent of Harley, but not bad) then we upped his work rate- all progressively etc, and it came on. It first happened on a lunge session and I was horrified, then it happened a few days later after a schooling session.

He had electrolytes and a good diet and the weight dropped off his back end so suddenly. Our usual vet was no good at all- she dismissed it, and his bloods came back okay with the exception of confirmation of a mild viral infection, but thankfully the new vet picked it up very quickly. His condition had worsened and I knew it wasn't the virus, so that's why the vet suggested another blood test and said he would do an insulin calculation.

Since then Sigs has got stronger and the muscle has finally gone back on and to date we have had no repeat of it- but I am always vigilant now.

[harry11]

what has the vet said so far that it maybe any other ideas.
Sending hugs

[harleydales]

I know Debbie, and believe me I'm not ruling anything out! Every suggestion is being written on a note and will be discussed with the vet when I get to speak to him.

So far we thought glucose problems, electrolyte problems, infection, red or white cell problems and Equine Metabolic Syndrome but they have been ruled out as bloods have come back normal for all parameters pertaining to those things. Apart from Jacqui's glucose calculations which could be tied to insulin.

So far there has been no weight loss or muscle wastage at all, he just looks fab
He's definitely not just excited as that wouldn't last for 20 hours - or start 5 hours after he gets home! And he's not tired - I've trotted him up during each episode and the heart rate stays the same and he trots out nicely. If he was tired the heart rate would go up. He does let me know if he's tired - me and this lad have done many, many competitive miles over the last 7 or 8 years and I know him through and through.

[Debbie]

Its the fact you know your boy through and through that you're picking up on this and persisting in getting him treated no matter what

The real stumper for me is the amount of time after the exercise before the shakes present themselves.

What is your after ride routine like? What do you feed him, and at what times after the ride? I'm not judging, I'm just trying to see if there's something that maybe can be spotted, or be a pointer to this.

[harleydales]

Same as I've always done, for the last 8 years!

At the end of a ride he gets water (and electrolytes if required depending on ride length and speed) before going to vet, he has to be presented to the vet within 30 mins of finishing the ride.

He gets vetted, then gets his feed - usually some hard feed (either pasture mix or sustain depending again on length and speed) with carrots and soaked sugar beet. He sometimes eats, he sometimes doesn't and he's always been like that.

When he gets home he is walked back out to the field for a stretch and turned out on his own. It's usually mid to late afternoon when we get home.

He then gets a feed later in the evening, the same stuff again plus vits/mins and chop.

After longer rides (20 miles plus) he will get fed the next morning as well - depending on how he looks. He hasn't done a competative ride for 2 years now though so doesn't need the extra. Remember also that I am in the north of Scotland so even when he sweats it is generally not that warm and electrolytes aren't needed - I've confirmed this with the vet and Harley will self feed himself electrolytes if he wants them, and he rarely does, even when we did the big 40 milers.

This is exactly the same as what happens when he is ridden at home, or boxed out for a hack, and as I said, this is what I have done for the last 7 or 8 years.

There was one awful ride I did just over 2 years ago, a very hot, heavy day and we were fast. It was a very hilly ride too, lots of up and down and that c oupled with the heavy sweaty weather just did for Harley. We couldn't get his heart rate down and were eliminated. I then had to box him 3 hours home with an elevated heart rate. He was fine the next day and back to normal - and never shook or anything. I added this to show he HAS been very stressed before and probably lacking in electrolytes but still was fine with no shaking. The vet tested and checked him after that ride and there were no metabolic/homeostatic disturbances.

[katiekynoch]

Another obscure suggestion (and probably way off target again) . . . have you considered 'shivers'? A couple of links below, but I don't think it's likely in Harley's case - just another one to add to the list to consider with your vet

www.freevetadvice.co.uk/shivers.htm

www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/article.php?aid=41582

Really hope you manage to get to the cause of this problem soon.

[Debbie]

..... boy that makes it about as clear as mud.

He's presenting the shaking hours n hours afterwards... possible glucose intolerance/blood sugar thing like Jacqui had pointed to? It can creep in over a very long time and won't show symptoms whatsoever for a long while. Or maybe still the mineral imbalance happening hours afterwards because his body suddenly uses a mineral to repair itself and gets depleted?

And I doubt this one, but what are some early on symptoms of Lyme's in animals? Would there be the lethargy? If it were Lyme's wouldn't there be something showing in the bloods? Elevated white blood cells? Or maybe not?

[harleydales]

I thought about Lyme - but it would show an infection so raised white cells, also there would be lethargy. I know a horse who had Lyme and he changed overnight into a slug - rather like I did!

I'm still veering towards glucose somehow.

Today I did 10 miles with him at home, got back at 1.45, washed him down, heart rate 48 within 10 mins again.

Checked him late afternoon, then fed him just after 7 - it's not easy in the dark but I thought there was a slight tremor. I'll see him just after 8 tomorrow morning and see what's happening.

[harleydales]

Well, there were NO shakes after yesterdays 10 miles!
So now I don't know whether it was something that didn't show in blood tests that he's now got over, or something else - but what?

I'm going to take him to an 11 mile pleasure ride at the end of the month and see what happens after that.

And now I'm not sure about claiming off the insurance either - if I do they'll write him off for metabolic problems in the future!

[SuzieP]

So glad he didn't shake this time, Jane. Maybe it was just a passing thing.

Re the insurance. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you do ever make a claim in the future, the insurance co will ask if he's ever been treated for a related condition before.....and will ask your vet for confirmation. At least - that's what happened when Alfie had to be treated for a recurrent abscess in his jaw. We healed it permanently in the end thank goodness, but the insurance company were very thorough in their investigations before paying out.

[Debbie]

Hmm... you know, Jane, I'm leaning back towards my original hypoglycemic reaction. My mom and Eldon both do this thing when their blood sugars get too low from not eating on time. They both 'get the shakes', which has nothing to do with the internal body temp... so like Harley seriously not needing a fleece or anything.

In both cases, they eat something with protein and sugar and that corrects the shakes after about half an hour. Eldon used to get it a lot worse when he was younger and had like no body fat whatsoever. He'd be so busy that he'd simply forget to eat until his body was crashing and he started shaking.

Its like the hunger trigger never effectively went off. Maybe its the same thing with Harley after a ride? Maybe he's needing the food, but his body doesn't have the hunger trigger going off, so he skips the bucket after the ride?

As for the insurance, I'd be tempted to pay out of my own pocket and skip telling them in case you need further help with it later on.

[SuzieP]

What Debbie described re Eldon and her Mum happens to me too - usually when I'm nervous before competing....so I don't eat and end up with the shakes when the exertion is over.