Intermittent Lameness Any Thoughts

[vonny]

Any thoughts please as to cause of lameness - Andy is 13 and up to 8 weeks ago he was unshod. I had been riding more (hound exercising) and he became lame in front. Discussed with our farrier to shoe or not to shoe and we agreed to shoe because of increased work. He shod really well but was still lame in front. gave him a weeks rest then called vet. Vet nerve blocked hoof right fore and woo hoo he came sound on right rein but was lame on left rein. Week of box rest and bute then he was xrayed - which showed nothing but still lame in front. 3 weeks of box rest, two weeks of bute on starvation paddock (weighs 536KG) still not sound. Vet nerve blocked coffin joint in right fore - was marginally better not such a dramatic improvement as when whole foot nerve blocked. Now on a month of daily 20 mins walk in straight line, 2 hrs out, limited soaked hay and box rest, and vet is recommending bar shoes.
I just feel vet hasnt a clue and we are just going through elimination. EMS rests were negative. He does have warmth around the coronet band.
He can appear pottery and puts the outside of his hooves down first, the shoes have made him walk more positive.
Any thoughts?

[harveydales]

Golly, this is a dificult one. I think I would want a second opinion at this stage, maybe a referal to one of the equine centres if he is insured. There are so many possibilities and we can all speculate but that's not really going to help you. Whatever it is, it is clearly bilateral.

A good physio/body worker might be able to help pinpoint the problem if it is something higher up making him place his feet in this manner, which in turn caused problems once you started to up his work. I tend to be unsure of altering foot placement through shoeing unless X-rays indicate it really would help.

It could still be a laminitis type problem. It took my old horse Quest well over a year to come properly sound ie until the the whole hoof had grown out a he develloped pockets of seedy toe. This wet summer has caused a lot of abscess problems and soft, sensitive soles. What does your farrier think?

[vonny]

My farrier is coming out friday and I have asked for his advice and asked the vet to email him the xrays. He has always said how good andy's hooves are. He has been to see the orthopedic equine vet - as he is insured I asked for an MRI but vet wants to try bar shoes first.
Vet suspected that its bruising due to being unshod - Andy has never been foot sore, limited road work as ridden on verges, bridleways and fields.
He has had bouts of being pottery over the winter so I gave him glucosomine and apple cider vinegar and it helped - this would indicate to me that its joints?

[valerie n scout]

Scout had a bad time last year with intermittent front lameness, don't think we got to the root of it but I thought it was his shoulder, he is on 16plus now and barefoot and fingers crossed....

[harveydales]

Sounds like you have a good farrier and to let him look at the x-rays and see Andy sounds a sensible plan. My own farrier says he would never put bar shoes on a horse without studying the x-rays first. Is the vet talking about heart-bar or egg-bar shoes? Let us know what your farrier says.

[kathnsonny]

It may be worth getting a second opinion and/or seeing a physio/chiropractor if only to be able to rule out something higher up, I've just been through this & can sympathise greatly. Hope you manage to get some answers, theres nothing worse than not knowing.

[flintfootfilly]

Hope you can get to the bottom of things.

Only a couple of thoughts from me:

- you describe him as pottery...... which is how a laminitic would be described. Maybe he has a low grade laminitis? At his age, I would think it would be worth blood-testing his ACTH (checking for Cushing's - I think there may still be a free voucher available for the test itself, though there'd still be the cost of vet callout and "draw blood"). Just checked, and the offer for free ACTH testing is still valid: www.talkaboutlaminitis.co.uk/certificate-form/#. If you go ahead with that, I'd also think of testing glucose and insulin again too (if the last test was a few months back) to check for insulin resistance, and therefore susceptibility to laminitis. The results might inform his future management so well worth doing, and especially as a diagnosis doesn't appear to have been made.

Another thought is maybe it is just general footsoreness from more work, or maybe there are foot abscesses brewing from more wear and tear while on hound exercise? In which case, you'd expect it to become worse bit by bit (sometimes dramatically - can appear like broken leg in terms of reluctance to weightbear or move).

Other than that, I'd be asking why the vet is suggesting bar shoes. If the pony has only been short term footsore, then I think I'd be more likely to leave them with less work for a while to allow the foot to heal. If the vet thinks he's footsore from being unshod, then surely he'd just be suggesting "regular" shoeing to raise the sole off the ground enough to minimise that.......... like most shod horses have? Must admit I don't like the idea of bar shoes because I just think they restrict the hoof movement even more and are likely to reduce the speed of any healing, but that's just my personal opinion.

He shouldn't be putting the outside of his feet down first - In doing this, it just shows his feet have not been properly balanced, and that in itself could lead to stress problems. Even if his conformation is less than ideal (I've no idea whether it is or not), he should be trimmed so that the foot can land equally on the medial (middle) and lateral (outside) edges of the hoof at the same time. This may mean that the hoof looks asymmetrical, but it's the only way to keep stresses equal in a pony who doesn't have "ideal" conformation. One of my mares is a really good example of this. Trimming her to have a perfectly symmetrical hoof just resulted in her landing on the outer edges first, whereas trimming her for an even landing allows her to move in a balanced way although her legs/hooves look wonky. If your farrier doesn't respond positively to any discussion on that, I'd change farriers personally. It's too important to compromise on. Doesn't need a remedial farrier to do a balanced trim - just a regular farrier.

I also like a comprehensive blood test too, because it can help guide the search for a diagnosis - for example, it might show changes in white blood cell count which might indicate an infection. Or it might show muscle damage, or whatever, and where diagnosis is proving elusive it might be worth considering.

I just keep coming back to your description "pottery" - I wouldn't think of that as being joints at all. For me it would describe laminitic or footsore, or possibly muscle stuff.

Does he get a full ration of a good feed balancer/vit-min supplement?

Sarah

[vonny]

Thanks for the thoughts - I have had the cushings test done which was negative, and tested for EMS which was inconclusive so followed with the glucose intolerance test which was negative.

I feed glucosomine and apple cider vinegar to help joints etc. I agree that I suspected shoulder issues but having had his hoof nerve blocked and seeing the dramatic improvement thought it is in hooves.

My farrier is out on friday and I do value his opinion - he noticed his foot action 8 weeks ago when he shod him so he will check. I will let you know his thoughts.

[tinkerdorisalison]

I'm not very good at spotting these things or explaining myself either but could his feet be sore because he is walking on the outside edges - indicating discomfort higher up.

Sorry if you'ev already looked at those things - hope you get to the bottom of it soon x

[Deleted]

Oct 17, 2012 17:27:23 GMT -1 tinkerdorisalison said:

I'm not very good at spotting these things or explaining myself either but could his feet be sore because he is walking on the outside edges - indicating discomfort higher up.

Sorry if you'ev already looked at those things - hope you get to the bottom of it soon x

I would agree with this and would be looking at any possible pain elsewhere that is causing him to overcompensate (saying that an animal that is lame due to foot will more than likely show up tension/tightness higher up to the shoulder/wither with a physio check due to trying to reduce the pain in the foot but a good physio will be able to tell the difference in whats causing what)

I would also be pushing for the MRI to know what I was dealing with before treating something that might not be the issue in the first place

[vonny]

Well my farrier was lovely yesterday and really took his time with Andy. The outcome being he has put egg bar shoes on him and he trotted up sound with them and appears to be more forward going. The farrier did comment that his front hoof action is heavy but did say that could be typical of a dales (not a lot of dales around here!)

He suspects that Andy had low grade laminitis which I have caught early, also there probably is some arthritic change starting because of his age (nothing shown on xrays) and his hooves (previously unshod) were on the limit combined with dreadful ground conditions this summer (apparently huge amount of hoof problems).

He wasn't comfortable having the front left shod (hammer) which farrier said it could be something or he could just not like the hammer (Andy can be a git......). His opinion see how he goes/rides in these shoes - if still lame/problems pursue MRI

[harveydales]

That's good news. Being sensitive to the hammer does sound like low grade Lami. Quest was very much like that all the time from his first atack onwards. Fingers crossed the eggbars help. Keep us posted.

[vonny]

Hi just a quick update Andy and I have spent te afternoon at the equine vets - upshot the x-rays today have shown he has 'reverse rotation pedal bone syndrome' - I think that was the terminology. Basically his pedal bone in both front hooves has dropped and now is straight. Remedy is remedial shoeing - glued on heart bar shoes, then remedial farrier work to reshape hooves to support the pedal bone - ultimately back to being unshod.

[harveydales]

That all sounds positive and your vet and farrier are working well together to get Andy back to full soundness. I hadn't heard of the term "reverse rotation pedel bone syndrome" but I think it describes what happened to Quest with careful management and good hoof trimming after his lami. Do kep us posted with Andy's progress.

[vonny]

Not sure the terminology I used is correct it was how the vet verbalised it - looking at his x rays the pedal bone in both fronts has dropped down so they look flat (should be slightly angled) and the rotation is in the opposite direction to a laminitic.

This explains why he moves like a laminitic pony but hasn't actually got laminitis.

And the plan is to correct through remedial shoeing and remedial trimming (shorter toe longer heel) with hopefully him going back bare foot.
Is Quest now fully functioning without bute? And is Quest shod or unshod?