Training The Dressage Dales

[Deleted]

i havent found dales ponys hard to break to canter as i broken lots in 2 ride

[bellajack]

I wondered what bits everyone else was using?

Jack is easy, but Bella has a very busy mouth, a result of her getting into the habit of playing about with her tongue in the back of her mouth when she was having big problems cutting teeth.

I had been sticking with a Sprenger KK Ultra but have just got the Sprenger Dynamic Ultra and am quite impressed with it so far. They both take a nice, consistant contact with it, although Bella is still fiddling a bit but nothing like as much.

I also bought a Sprenger Ultra Baucher for a very good price on ebay tonight.

What does everyone else use? I assume we all have ponies with small mouths with low palates?

[harveydales]

I have Harvs in the KK Ultra loose ring. I've never tried him in anything else, he seems happy enough with that bit.

Quest (different breed but equally small mouth with a thick tongue) was only happy in the really thick original KK lozenge bit. He faffed and fiddled with smaller bits which you would expect him to prefer. I guess they are all different.

[bellajack]

That's very interesting - I never even thought of trying Bella in a thicker bit. Thanks for that.

[greydales]

I am a fan of the Sprenger bits, my favourite was the training bradoon which I used on Pip (I went through nearly all bits known to man and that one was the one he went best in!).

Although I don't like single joint snaffles, Dan actually goes better in that than a double joint and he's always had a plain hollow mouth, loose ring single joint.

I started Saturn with the Sprenger but I didn't feel he was very happy in it, and I then tried a mullen mouth pelham which he was better in. I now use a mullen mouth baucher with a central roller so you can move each side independently, so far I'm very pleased with this bit.

Olivia currently uses a fulmer french link to aid turning, Cherry is still rather fussy with the bit so I haven't yet put side reins on her.

I also tried the Sprenger on Dancer, but he actually went much better in a thicker french link bit - maybe he's had too many harsh hands with thin bits in a previous life!

[bellajack]

Is your baucher like the Neue Schule Comfy Contact bit? I have tried the eggbut CC but not the baucher version. I wasn't sure the sweet iron was a good idea because she slobbers enough with the Aurigan! It also seemed a bit thin. How thick is yours? Was Saturn a fiddler with the KK?

Lots of questions, sorry, just hoping to find something she fiddles less with before it becomes too ingrained a habit! I know the SRS use drop nosebands to discourage tongue faults, but that makes no difference to her.

Still early days as I only started bitting her a couple of months ago, and I feel sorry for her as she has had so much trouble with her teeth which must have been very sore, but she doesn't object to being bridled at all, in fact she seems to like having a bit in there to fiddle with. I don't like to keep chopping and changing, but as I said, I am worried about it becoming too habitual, especially as she has been fiddling with her teeth for so long before she was even mouthed.

The strange thing is she still seems to manage to maintain a lovely, light, consistant contact, even though her tongue is working overtime. Sounds ridiculous, but it is true. Perhaps if I just fogot about it, it would disappear anyway!!

[greydales]

It looks a bit like the CC but if I'm right the CC is more like a french link in the way it is jointed; the one I have is more solid like a mullen mouth, it only pivots either end (bit hard to explain!). By the way did you know the NS comfy contact bits have been recalled? www.neueschulebits.com/acatalog/Product_Recall.html

Saturn isn't particularly a fiddler - he does open his mouth a little from time to time, but I found his head a bit unsteady in the KK for some reason.

Cherry fusses like mad with a bit although to be fair I haven't given her regular enough sessions with it. Have you tried a plain mullen mouth? There isn't anything for them to 'play' with although if they have a habit of messing with their tongues it's very easy for them to get it over a mullen mouth.

[bellajack]

I did see that the CC had been recalled. I bought mine later than that, but I don't know how long it had been in stock. Thanks for that. What make is your baucher? It sounds interesting.

I am begining to think that no bit is going to make any difference, it's just a hobby she has. She doesn't ever put her tongue over the bit, just draws it up in her mouth. I doubt anyone looking would really notice, but it does mean that she is so focused on playing about with her tongue that it can be hard to get her to concentrate on anything else. If she was of a less confident personality it might be easier to distract her from it! Hopefully the novelty will wear off eventually, but would be interested in hearing where your baucher came from.

Thanks for your help.

[greydales]

This is the bit I bought, they do a range of bits at reasonable prices.

cgi.ebay.co.uk/CS-Mullen-Barrel-Baucher-Hanging-Cheek-Snaffle-Bit_W0QQitemZ170103709854QQihZ007QQcategoryZ16244QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bellajack]

Thanks very much for the link. I may have to add yet another bit to my vast collection!

She was tilting her head a bit yesterday and, when I looked, the canine that has been sitting under the gum for some time (just Bella's luck being one of the few mares to get one), now feels a bit sharp under the skin. Although the bit isn't very near it I think it is probably pulling the skin tighter across it, so I rode her in a hackamore today and we both heaved a sigh of relief. I am going to keep her the hackamore now until she has completely finished teething, which will probably be about this time next year! Never mind, we will get there in the end! It always has seemed unfortunate to me, that we start riding and mouthing them when such massive changes are going on in their mouths.

[clara]

All these comments are really interesting and neither of my ponies seem to have much of an extended trot even when mucking about in the field. Is this due to the trotter blood bred in at some point in the breeds history? There seem to be acouple of different dales types, some are light, some are heavy some are forward going some are economic with their effort!! Is this diversity in breed due to the grading up thingy people sometimes talk about?
I really love my dales they are fast, clever, agaile and generally a priviledge to work with. I would be reluctant to buy another breed of horse now. That said they do have some restrictions which when you start to look at competing them in dressage or like me driving dressage they are naturally less competitive than their Welsh cousins this is because of their round and round trot and the problems they experience with extensions. I know that they can do it but it lacks the floating toe pointing grace of other breeds. Does anyone think that (and this is really controvercial so please don't shout at me for raising it ) the dales pony is endangered in part because of the way it moves? It does have it's restrictions as far as competing ponies. Also do you think that the dales is rare because it hasn't gone the way of the Welsh and lost some of it's bone, feather and weight? Given that the dales is such a diverse creature would people think it a travesty to breed in a German sport pony line? What do people think about it?
Also what does a brown horse look like. Is it like mine a very dark bay/black in winter? I am being a real dunce but I find it difficult to picture brown!!!

[harveydales]

You've raised some interesting points here. I think I want to consider it bit more before putting down my thoughts and opinions, particularly as I'm relatively new top the breed.

I thought the rarity of the breed was a historical thing connected with the fact that huge numbers of Dales were taken from their agricultural homes and transported for use during WW1 and also the introduction of modern agricultural machinary and transport meant the Dales lost their traditional role as a working pony. So their role has changed to a general all-round recreational riding/driving pony.

I believe the Germans have shown keen interest in introducing Dales blood into their dressage pony breeding programmes and, as usual, we British have missed out! But there is no reason why a Dales Pony can't compete with the best at dressage - they may not have the extravagent paces of the WBs but there are lots of plusses too.

I could go on but I better leave it to the real Dales Pony experts.

[knight]

Well I'm quite new to the breed too but I think it's true that in general the breeds with baroque movement (including Dales) had been out of favor. But that seems to be coming back around with the growing interest in the iberian breeds & Fresians. So I kind of see it as sort of a popularity statement that goes full circle regarding the Dales action. And having shown an arab in dressage I well know about the prejudices of competition. Dales blood in a sport pony line sounds so interesting. But at the end of the day I wouldn't be one to suggest alot of changes in the Dales breed itself. Have to admit I've grown to love the heavy ponies with plenty of bone and some feather. I too should leave a really in depth discussion to the folks who know Dales Ponies far better than I.

Oh, forgot about your question about brown. I guess I kind of figured brown encompassed pretty much anything that wasn't absolutely jet black. So Knight who is also dark bay, nearly black in winter I think to be rightly registered as brown. As I recall the DPS does not use bay so I though brown just took in all that were not gray or roan & not jet black, which would leave the wide range of bays as brown. Help me out here you more knowledgable folks.

[bellajack]

Hello Clara, fascinating points you have raised.

I think the diversity in type and temperament is just an individual thing. Mine are by the same stallion and their dams are very closely related, but one is a lightweight fairly energetic Dales and the other is a heavyweight, very economic energy-wise type!!

The loss of popularity of the baroque type horse stemmed from the dominance of the Germans in both breeding programmes and the formulation of the rules of competition dressage, and the total failure of the classical dressage movement to fight their corner. This led to the emphasis on a big, ground covering stride with massive extensions, which comes naturally to warmbloods, and the reduction in importance of a natural ability to collect, which comes naturally to baroques.

Even though the rules still emphasize the importance of transference of weight backwards, this ability is rarely reflected in the results. Although some riders managed to bridge the divide and train according to classically correct principals with world class success, most notably Reiner Klimke, most of the classical school withdrew from competition, along with their baroque horses, and stuck to dressage as purely an art form - ie. The Spanish Riding School and The Cadre Noir.

As interest in the classical school as returned, baroques are starting to reappear in top level competition, and this will hopefully trickle down the levels. If it does then the ability to really collect and transfer weight to the hindquarters will become as equally prized as the ability to naturally extend, which can only help increase the demand for breeds like the Dales. I think that they can extend, it just takes a lot more work and training, as it is not so natural for them, just as true collection takes much more work and training with a warmblood, as it doesn't come naturally to them.

I also think - I am being controversial now - that the continued emphasis on Dales being 14.2 or under is a mistake. I know it is traditional, but people are bigger today than they were, and it does put them firmly in the child's pony bracket, (in the minds of people who haven't had Dales anyway) and most of them seem to me to be too wide and too strong, physically and mentally, to be ideal for the average child. I know there isn't a maximum height restriction as such but being over 14.2 is regarded as a conformational fault, which I would like to see abandoned to encourage adult to consider them more readily as a horse suitable for the adult rider. But that is just my own humble opinion. I would be very interested in what others think, on all these points. Also I wondered how important collection is considered to be in driven dressage? As they are pulling rather than carrying, does true collection matter at all? Are there other differences?

By the way, I have loved your thread on driving trials. It has almost inspired me to get the tyre and bag of tin cans out again!!!

[greydales]

Hi Clara, some interesting points! I don't think the Dales pony is endangered due to the way it moves; I love the high and round knee action and it is a trademark of the breed (however not all Dales have this action). I think it's more to do with not enough breeding mares, but I'm no expert on this?

I think many 'traditional' breeds have been bred finer and finer for the showring, because gracefulness and elegance tends to be more aesthetically pleasing than stockiness and cobbiness, but they then tend to lose their type. For example the Morgan breed (although American) was originally quite similar to the Welsh D, but a huge influence of Saddlebred has changed many of the Morgans beyond recognition - and you now get quite different 'types' of Morgan horse. Usually the ones who grace the showring and win inhand are these swan-necked fragile looking horses who don't look as if they could do a day's work (or even an hour's!) and don't resemble the original Morgan in any way, shape or form - they just look like Barbie dolls (but there is BIG money in it!!).

The Dales has a particular desired way of moving which is true to type. The 'older' judges I presume would always be looking for traditional action and that is important to a lot of Dales owners.
If you were to cross the Dales with a sport horse then you may achieve the movement you are looking for but you would probably lose the Dales type - is this what you would want? No doubt some crosses would be very interesting though - I have often wondered what a Dales x Morgan would be like, two of my favourite breeds. I wouldn't be averse to experimenting on a cross but only as long as I had bred some pure Dales first!

I haven't yet seen a Dales extend in the same way a WB can although that doesn't mean there aren't any out there (would like to know if there are!). I am sure that many Dales given the right training would do well at dressage (some from here have and still are competing successfully at affiliated dressage) but I think if you want to get something suitable to compete at top level then you would be better off looking for a breed that would fulfil those requirements, rather then try and 'make the Dales fit' if you get my meaning - unless of course you would be happy to cross breed, that is your choice! But if you did go down that road then there is no guarantee that any offspring would take after the 'sportier' parent - they may take after the Dales! Might be fun trying though, I did see a Dales x TB foal who had the most amazing action

Re. brown ponies - my filly Olivia is bay to all intents and purposes but on her passport she is 'brown with black points'. What I take to be a real brown pony are those who are very dark brown with black points, as yours is. They usually have a lighter muzzle as well.