Training The Dressage Dales

[bellajack]

Greydales - with regard to top class dressage competion, why should a high degree of extension be marked more highly than a high degree of collection? Surely dressage started with the baroque breeds and warmbloods have just jumped in and pushed them out, for the reasons I pointed out above. To go back to historical roots todays paces at top level would be consisered forced and unnatural - "nothing forced can ever be beautiful" - and still are by many knowledgeable people. Surely there should be an even playing field for both types of horse and I believe trends are swinging back that way.

Ps. This is a great discussion - lets keep it going!

[greydales]

Well yes, theoretically the playing field should be level but in practise, it's the horses with the huge extravagant paces that are always going to catch the judge's eye and have the WOW factor - that seems to be the way competition dressage has gone. At the mo competition dressage and classical dressage seem to be two very different things!

I've seen many top dressage horses who can produce the goods but not without an extremely 'busy' rider - and unfortunately a lot of force in some instances.

Re. your feelings on breeding Dales larger, I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I like them large; two of mine are 14.3hh and might even make 15hh, and I wouldn't want them smaller! But I think that if you start breeding for larger and larger ponies then you lose the pony characteristics and they become more horse-like.

At the mo though there do seem to be some quite large Dales around and there are often two distinct types - the traditional and the ridden, show pony who is often bigger and finer.

All the above just my personal opinions!

[clara]

Wow so much interesting stuff - where do I begin. Sadly I'm not in a position to breed anything at the moment adn even though I would love to - I think I may prefer to buy other peoples anyhow!! I never knew the movement was called Baroque - it sounds great and much better than bycicle LOL!!
In reply to Bella jack the whole dressage with a carriage thing is a bit laughable as one is obviously missing the key component to dressage which is a rider! I suppose it is the equivalent to training the dressage horse in longreins. That said the ponies tend to end up on the forehand because of the weight they bear across their shoulders. It is all a bit barking really my favorite is in the teams dressage test all four have to do shoulder in and not one has a leg to bend round LOL! I think the collection and the fact that they more readily engage their quarters does help the dales when being driven as it means that they tend to fall on the forehand less and they are engaing the right engine to pull their load. I know what you mean about height but I do think that most women could ride a dales and not look under horsed. Sporty can carry a fair amount of weight and he takes up the leg quite well. I have to say that when I ride him he feels like a pony. His canter makes me laugh - it's just like a rocking horse. Again I think it is perception, the overhorsed look has become in vogue and people feel they they need a bigger horse to look more like all the photos when actually they don't really. It always amazes the amount of snobbery in the kind of pony/horse you have - it's like handbags. I have such a different reaction to Sporty when I plait him and cut off his feathers. He is taken much more seriously. I hope things are swinging back toward the traditionals as the prejudice is a bit sad.
Greydales - tell me why there are the two types of dales? Why is there this difference between the show and the traditional. Judging by the descriptions I think I like the show line as that is what Sporty is. Do you think the show line is moving toward a lighter, less feathered and more performance oriented breed. Where do you see the breeds' future?
I am sure Sporty was black when I bought him maybe it is because he lives out? He is a touch darker than Olivia. Your ponies look really beautiful I love Saturn and Olivia particularly. What is their breeding?
Sporty has the occasional grey hair which I tease him about as I'm sure I should be the one getting them not him!!

[bellajack]

I have heard it said that the ridden Dales that qualify for Olympia and hold their own in mixed M and M classes are not, on the whole, the type that do well under a traditional Dales judge because of their conformation. I overheard this conversation at the breed stand at The Royal Show.

Waterside Grace, who lives here with Bella and Jack, was ridden champion at the Spring Show before we had her, after winning the Traditional class, and is always highly placed in hand. She has a very short, high croup, and a Hackney type trot that the judges love, but can't canter in a balanced fashion to save her life, and never does canter of her own accord, even in the field. I can only think that this is due to her conformation and action. I should think that if you got a traditional type Dales that had a good comfortable canter, then that would be the ideal for showing, but you can't win an Olympia qualifier on a pony that can't canter, so if that's where you want to go, you have to go with the type and conformation that can, rather than anyone aiming to produce a non traditional type.

I would be the last person on earth to want to lose the pony character - I have always prefered ponies, but I think that you could preserve that in a 15hh (or slightly more) Dales (Jack and Harvey being the living proof, with many others I'm sure) and have Dales thought of as small horses. I know that they can carry adults with ease, but the perception to the uninitiated seem to be that they are children's ponies, which means that many adults don't even consider the best breed in the world, bar none!!!

[bellajack]

I meant to ask; can't a wonderful, correct, high-stepping, extravagant piaffe and passage be just as eye catching, and have as much, or more, WOW factor as an extravagant extended trot? Give me Invasor over all the warmbloods, every time!

[harveydales]

I'm finding this thread fascinating reading. I've typed a few replies and then decided not to post because I'm not a true Dales Pony expert - only came to them 5 years ago.

But I've always loved dressage and Native Ponies and firmly believe there are a few Dales Ponies who would and do have the necessary WOW factor and ability to hold their own at the very top dressage levels. I'm convinced Harvey could have gone far higher in different hands. A close friend of mine was the first person ever to take a Highland Pony to PSG level (and hold her own against the WBs) and she assured me that Harvey had far more talent and ability than Tamara did at the time.

I'm not that knowledgeable on Dales Pony types and what is meant by traditional etc. I do see some more pony types and some bigger types. Harvey has the big head which I like but I guess isn't what is wanted?

It is true, the bigger Dales are perhaps more suitable for adult riders (psychologically I mean) but I do wonder what joint problems we might be introducing if we breed bigger and bigger. It has to be a good thing to keep a wide gene pool and also maintain whatever is meant by the traditional Dales Pony.

It is true that WBs tend to have the extravagant paces that seem to be popular in top dressage circles (although I see things are changing). But I have seen many, many WB with poxy little paces and all sorts of foot/joint problems. It is only a few who make it to the top. Don't forget, the Germans put an awful lot into their dressage horse breeding programmes and most WB have a lot of TB, often Iberian blood and even some Native Pony blood very occasionally in their pedigrees way back.

Things are changing but it will take a long time I suppose. Another friend of mine writes for some of the European dressage judges at the top levels and told me they don't have any time for the more cobby/hairy types. She said certain horses who performed perfectly good tests were dismissed from the start because they lacked WOW factor. But hopefully this will change eventually.

I've been told there are 4 types of Friesian and they are now promoting the "sport type" which is finer and less hairy but presumably they hope it will appeal to more riders whereas the Baroque type, which is my personal favorite, is becoming out of favour. I would hate to see the Dales Pony go down this route.

[greydales]

Hi Clara, I'm not an authority on whether there are actually different 'types' of Dales but am just commenting purely on what I have observed! I don't think that there is any deliberate intention to produce larger and finer ponies, just that some do exist and these often do better at ridden classes in open competition. It's difficult to predict how a foal from certain parents will turn out - my Olivia is huge but one of her full brothers (I think he is anyway) is under 14hh. Neither her sire or dam are particularly large, nor are Cherry's. I often wonder just how much my pasture has to do with their growth rate lol!

As for the breed's future, well despite them being on the critical list there certainly seem enough people who are interested in them - and IMO they are definitely more a teenager/adult's pony than a child's in the way Welsh Sec Ds are. Perhaps the Welsh have a greater following as they have more of a variation in size from As to Ds - perhaps it's their more extravagant paces (although not all have it) or maybe their prettier heads? Who knows

You do get different kinds of blacks - pure blacks and fading blacks. Saturn and Cherry are fading blacks - jet black in winter but in summer, they fade to a brownish colour, especially Saturn who can get quite orange in places! The pure blacks tend to stay black all year round.

Saturn's breeding is Wolsey Lord Nelson x Wolsey Emma Jane;
Olivia's breeding is Wolsey Master Oliver x Daloumie Sweet Melody.

[bellajack]

I didn't mean so much that we should deliberately encourage the breeding of bigger ponies, more that it shouldn't be held against what is otherwise a very typey Dales, if it is a few inches over 14.2hh. Welsh Cobs don't seem to be thought of as ponies, but perhaps it is also because of the name.

There may be increased interest in Dales these days, but unfortunately around here it tends to be with people looking for an easy Olympia ticket, who have tried and failed with more numerous breeds. They have, on the whole, no interest in the Dales for it's own sake, and move on when the Olympia ticket fails to materialise. Even with these people, Dales are very thin on the ground in this area, although the amount of horse ownership is massive. There are far more Fells and Highlands at shows in this area than Dales, and a couple of Dales turning up creates quite a stir, which is nice for us, but sad for the breed.

I firmly believe that they need promoting as an alround competition small horse, not as a walking Olympia ticket with no job outside the showring. I know that I am preaching to the converted here, but that really is how they are seen in this area. Outside the showring there are practically is practically no interest in them at all around here.

[bellajack]

Ps. We all keep saying that we are not experts - I am not either, I had never clapped eyes on a Dales in the flesh until I met Bella 4 years ago - does anyone know Jo Ashby well enough to ask her to come on here and comment, or another real expert?

[knight]

This is such an interesting exchange of ideas, very thought provoking. I remember thinking when reading Iona Fitzgerald's "Dales Ponies" how wise it seemed that they have kept the overheight ponies in the registry as the genetic diversity seems so critical. As far as differenty types, well at least in the US that seems to happen to all breeds that are shown. When I was young the quarter horses was the "bulldog type" few as tall as 15hh and very heavy & muscular. The current appendix QH's are so far from this it's hard to believe it's the same breed. And yet there are still some good ranch type QH being bred, but they're not in the show ring. Sadly in most breeds the show horses are nearly useless outside of the arena, a far cry from the origins of the breed. I do hope the Dales can escape this and as bellajack & otherse have said be promoted for the fabulous all rounders that they still are. And I hope some way can be found in the US to even get adults to look at them, as the very word PONY turns off most adults who get a mental picture of a Thelwell type pint size bundle of mischief. I agree that they seem best suited to teenagers or adults, but here it's hard for them to get past perple's perceptions of ponies. Folks are shocked when they see Knight after hearing I got a pony. "That can't be a pony, he's bigger than my horse!" Not to mention in this area which is 95% quarterhorse they can't decide what to make of his baroque movement. But I was attracted to Dales for just the allround competetion horse you mention, bellajack.

[knight]

And I wanted to add that I hesitated so much before posting in this thread because I'm no expert but I do have ideas. But you all have posted so many ideas and not shot anyone down. That's why I would post here but not on other boards. Dales fans and their ponies are really special.

[bellajack]

Totally agree with you on everything you have said Knight. Wonder if we could petition for the name to be changed to Dales Horse/Pony? ;D

[clara]

I couldn't agree more!

[clara]

Thanks Greydales I now know where to go shopping next!!!
Best of luck with them all.